# Defiant Chief Justice Vows to Keep Ten Commandments Monument **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319 "2003-08-15T03:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/281 "2003-08-25T17:05:07Z")
Lekatt: You left out “or at all, for that matter” after your comment about you not answering questions. Just for grins, how about telling us how you managed to be reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to include the words “under God” way back before those were inserted into it. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/282 "2003-08-25T17:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*See no reason to consider this post sincere. \*\* The post seemed quite sincere to me. However, answering that post would force you to say that either : A) Having Captain Coca-Cola to tell all the kids to drink Coca-Cola every day before school would not indicate school support of Coca-Cola, which would be an obviously absurd stance to take. or… B) Having a school official lead prayers would indicate illegal school promotion religion, which you seem intent on not admitting. So, presented with a lose-lose situation, you chose to ignore the post completely. I would consider that running away. Wouldn’t it be better for you to just admit that you might be mistaken about something? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/283 "2003-08-25T19:47:07Z")
By what measure do we say a person is Catholic or Jewish or Pagan. By their word? By their beliefs? By their actions? Anyone can claim anything now, can’t they. That is not proof. I love how you switch the topics and ignore the statements you don’t care to answer, while accusing others of doing same. I don’t care what they do with the rock, and I doubt if Judge Moore does. It has served its purpose. At no time since the beginning of this country has government received orders from the “church”, whatever that means. These issues are raised by people who seem to be offended by representations or symbols of God. These people do not believe in God, and are usually called atheists. No one, theists, atheists, lumberjacks, etc., can change the world. To try is to fail, we can only change ourselves. If you are wish to do battle with the windmills of society. Go for it. God Bless America Love ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/284 "2003-08-25T20:16:27Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by lekatt \* **Anyone can claim anything now, can’t they. That is not proof.[/QUOUTE]** ``` Everybody remember that he said this! ``` > [@](#): > > \*\* > I love how you switch the topics and ignore the statements you don’t care to answer, while accusing others of doing same. \*\* Do you talk to yourself often? > [@](#): > > \*\* > At no time since the beginning of this country has government received orders from the “church”, whatever that means. \*\* I agree with you on this point > [@](#): > > \*\* > These issues are raised by people who seem to be offended by representations or symbols of God. These people do not believe in God, and are usually called atheists. > \*\* No, these issues are raised by people who want to ensure that government _never_ receives "orders from the ‘church’ ". They are called freedom lovers. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/285 "2003-08-25T20:16:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*By what measure do we say a person is Catholic or Jewish or Pagan. By their word? By their beliefs? By their actions? Anyone can claim anything now, can’t they. That is not proof. > > God Bless America > Love \*\* [Pit Worthy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207073) ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/286 "2003-08-25T21:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\* > No one, theists, atheists, lumberjacks, etc., can change the world. To try is to fail \*\* [I](http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Smith.html)[disagree](http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Marx.html). ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/287 "2003-08-25T23:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Anyone can claim anything now, can’t they. That is not proof.** Wow. I’m definatly saving this. Oh, the irony… > [@](#): > > **No one, theists, atheists, lumberjacks, etc., can change the world.** Alexander, Caesar, Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Washington,Ghengis Kahn… Didn’t change a thing, hmm? Humanity has changed the world quite a bit durring their short reign here on earth. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/288 "2003-08-25T23:09:20Z")
I’m hurt, Leroy. I’m being patient. I’m not calling you names, like some other people. I’m just sitting here, talking plain, about a topic we can both understand. Prayer in school. It’s a good analogy to the main topic, and I think the Captain Coca-Cola point is a reasonable one. (Admittedly, though, the thought process behind it was, "Well, what if Duffman… wait, it’s a school, can’t use Duffman. Coca Cola works. Coke is all american, too. Works better.) So, really, I’m sitting here, talking in words we both can understand, about one simple thing. Trying to have a conversation. Eliminate a little ignorance about something maybe you havn’t thought too hard about. And I’m seeing you cover your eyes and run away when I bring up something you don’t want to think about. I don’t like that. Can you understand me, Leroy? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/289 "2003-08-26T06:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*How is it that forcing a court of a sovereign state to remove a display of the Ten Commandments is not considered a violation of the 'free exercise clause"? \*\* hmm - last I checked, only individuals had religious beliefs, not states. so if the state is putting up the religious monument as an aspect of its soverignty, hmm, what’s the term for that again? oh yeah, a state establishing a religion. knew I could work that out if I tried hard enough. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/290 "2003-08-26T07:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Examples of the “Our Dicks are Bigger” Jurisprudence > > Of course it sounds much more elegant in Norman French. \*\* “Nostres vitz sont plus grandez.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/291 "2003-08-26T10:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Northern Piper \* > \*\*hmm - last I checked, only individuals had religious beliefs, not states. > > so if the state is putting up the religious monument as an aspect of its soverignty, hmm, what’s the term for that again? > > oh yeah, a state establishing a religion. > > knew I could work that out if I tried hard enough. 🙂 \*\* Yeah, you’re right, you had to “work” that out. Displaying the Ten Commandments is not establishing an official religion that the citizens are required by law to pay homage to. The displaying of the Ten Commandments is nothing more than an acknowledgement. The citizens of Alabama are not under any jeopardy by the display of the Commandments. Now, if the citizens were required by the state to pay homage to, and tithe to a religion, under penalty of law for failure to do so, then there would be a violation of the establishment clause. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/292 "2003-08-26T10:19:58Z")
Razorsharp: So, you’re just ignoring everything Moore’s said on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/293 "2003-08-26T13:34:26Z")
can’t have it both ways, **Razorsharp**. In the passage I quoted, you suggested that the state’s actions were a religious exercise, apparently to support an argument that it was protected under the “free exercise” clause. Now you’re saying that it’s just an acknowledgement, to wiggle away from the establishment issue. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/294 "2003-08-26T16:12:08Z")
For a good analysis of what the Constitutions reall says about the First and Fourteenth Amendments as applied to the Alabama controversy. \<[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=34270](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34270)\> Politicians and others want to control religion and/or extinguish it! What you do to others will come back to bite your rear! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/295 "2003-08-26T18:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spingears \* > \*\*For a good analysis of what the Constitutions reall says about the First and Fourteenth Amendments as applied to the Alabama controversy. > > \<[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=34270](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34270)\> > > Politicians and others want to control religion and/or extinguish it! > What you do to others will come back to bite your rear! \*\* It’s nice to see a little spoofing introduced into the thread. The thought that the _[worldnetdaily.com](http://worldnetdaily.com)_ (supported only by a link to a religious web address) is the ultimate authority on what the First and Fourteenth Amendements really say brings much needed levity into the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/296 "2003-08-26T19:23:06Z")
Update: This actually is a great article. In fact it complete contradicts [Alan Keyes’ Worldnet.com claim](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34270) that this is more of a States vs. Feds problem. (By the way, if you have the stomach to read the [Worldnet.com](http://Worldnet.com) article posted above, more power to you. His arguements are at best “interesting”.) [AL.com news](http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1061889737134520.xml) > [@](#): > > Christians “have allowed the acknowledgment of God to be taken from us because three lawyers walked in this building and are offended at looking at God’s word,” Moore said on the courthouse steps. “That’s what this case is about. It’s not about a monument. It’s not about religion. It’s about acknowledgment of almighty God.” So we kinda knew that’s where the Chief Justice stood. Here’s where the kooks get kookier. > [@](#): > > In Mobile, Ten Commandments supporters made good on their promise to open another front by filing a lawsuit challenging the monument’s removal. … > “The removal of the Ten Commandments Monument is tantamount to discrimination of their religious beliefs in favor of the religion of nontheistic beliefs,” the plaintiffs’ lawyers maintained in their motion for a restraining order. … > “But in doing so as ordered, the defendants, either knowingly or not, are, in fact, establishing a religion in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution – the religion of nontheistic beliefs,” McGinley and Dorley allege in their lawsuit. . The religion of nontheistic beliefs? You mean I could have been tax exempt all of this time? Thank you Alabama, for making me laugh at you, again. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/297 "2003-08-27T16:35:22Z")
and finally: [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/index.html) > [@](#): > > Movers Wednesday morning relocated the controversial Ten Commandments monument at the Alabama Judicial Building. The 5,300-pound granite slab remains in the building, but out of public view. I would like to do my happy dance now. 🙂 Now, all that needs to happen is the Judge get brought down on all 6 ethics violation charges and be removed from the bench. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/298 "2003-08-27T16:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stpauler \* > \*\*and finally: > [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/index.html) > > I would like to do my happy dance now. > > 🙂 > > Now, all that needs to happen is the Judge get brought down on all 6 ethics violation charges and be removed from the bench. \*\* Not time to dance yet. Many armies have won battles before losing the war. The Godless have much work to do to squash religion. The Christians will be back and in much greater numbers. God Bless America ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/299 "2003-08-27T16:51:57Z")
lekatt: Try to keep up, will you? The Christians aren’t only those people supporting the unconstitunional cramming of one particular religious view down the collective throat of the populace. I, for one, am a Christian and see Moore’s stunt as not only unconstitutional but unchristian and unethical. Feel free to whip out the “no true Scotsman” argument now. That will be doubly laughable because not only am I a Christian, I’m also of Scots descent. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/300 "2003-08-27T17:01:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\* The Christians will be back and in much greater numbers. > > God Bless America \*\* CITE? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=16)