# Defiant Chief Justice Vows to Keep Ten Commandments Monument **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319 "2003-08-15T03:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/41 "2003-08-15T18:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > \*\*I think a few posts have addressed this sufficiently. But, I do want to point out the First Amendent language: > “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” > > I think the word “respecting” is there for a reason lest only a formal establishment of state religion be construed as violation of the intent. \*\* The word “congress” is also there for a reason, but that aside… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Polycarp_ > **To do so using public funds in a public structure means that he’s using the tax money of people who may not agree with him to foster his own (religious) belief that the Ten Commandments are the basis of Alabama law –** … the faux “concern” for the Constitution’s integrity over the placement of the Ten Commandments is, in reality, a not so thinly veiled attack on religion as a whole, and Christianity in particular. If the integrity of the Constitution and the unaruthorized expendature of tax-collars are the true motivations behind those who protest the loudest against the placement of the Ten Commandments in a state building, then why are they so silent when it comes to the un-Constitutional pouring of tax-dollars down various third-world dung-hills? Can anyone show where the Constitution authorizes the FedGov to allocate foreign-aid expenditures? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/42 "2003-08-15T19:02:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > **The word “congress” is also there for a reason, but that aside… the faux “concern” for the Constitution’s integrity over the placement of the Ten Commandments is, in reality, a not so thinly veiled attack on religion as a whole, and Christianity in particular.** I don’t think it’s a faux concern. I think that there’s a difference between a state sponsored statue in a place where religion shouldn’t be a direct factor. Especially since the judge in question has no apparent qualms about proselytizing, it makes one wonder how blind the justice would be. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*If the integrity of the Constitution and the unaruthorized expendature of tax-collars are the true motivations behind those who protest the loudest against the placement of the Ten Commandments in a state building, then why are they so silent when it comes to the un-Constitutional pouring of tax-dollars down various third-world dung-hills? > > Can anyone show where the Constitution authorizes the FedGov to allocate foreign-aid expenditures? \*\* And what about Scarecrow’s brain? Sounds like topics for another thread or two, but not this one. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/43 "2003-08-15T19:03:37Z")
Let the atheists have their way, take down the plaque, burn the bibles and the churches, whatever makes them happy. Separation of church and state is not the issue here. Control is the issue. It all doesn’t matter, God is Love, He is compassionate, and all will pass into His presence. Love ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/44 "2003-08-15T19:15:18Z")
Oh shit! **lekatt** knows we are going to burn the bibles and churches, and are not just fighting for separation of church and state! WHO TOLD??? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/45 "2003-08-15T19:18:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stpauler \* > \*\*And what about Scarecrow’s brain? Sounds like topics for another thread or two, but not this one. \*\* Well, it’s about the integrity of the Constitution, isn’t it? Or is it like I said, “faux concern”? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/46 "2003-08-15T19:21:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*Well, it’s about the integrity of the Constitution, isn’t it? Or is it like I said, “faux concern”? \*\* Yes, but when it deals with the OP, not when it deals with 3rd world countries, abortion, copywrite laws, or yelling “fire” in a crowded theater. And finally, I agree with **Lekatt** , welcome to the darkside, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/47 "2003-08-15T19:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Oh shit! **lekatt** knows we are going to burn the bibles and churches, and are not just fighting for separation of church and state! WHO TOLD??? \*\* That was me. Sorry. Rather than wearing my First Amendment T-Shirt, I wore my Burn the Bibles and Churchs and Bring Back the Lions for the Christians T-Shirt. Poor planning on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/48 "2003-08-15T19:29:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stpauler \* > \*\*Yes, but when it deals with the OP, not when it deals with 3rd world countries, abortion, copywrite laws, or yelling “fire” in a crowded theater. > And finally, I agree with **Lekatt** , welcome to the darkside, buddy. \*\* Oh, I understand your point, I just get a kick out of revealing the sanctimony of the left. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/49 "2003-08-15T19:30:56Z")
Oh, and I forgot: Why all the concern regarding the establishment of religon, when men have to pay child support, but women, thanks to a Supreme Court who bought into the feminist agenda, can have an abortion at any time. What about that one, **stpauler**? Huh? I just wanted to beat ole **Razor** to the punch. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/50 "2003-08-15T19:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \*\*\* > > So you wouldn’t be a little hesitant about being tried in a court where the judge had “Allah is great, Allah is good” on a big banner behind him? > > I might be hesitant about lots of things. That doesn’t make then unconstitutional. Lots of unfair, unpleasant, unjust things are done by govenment. I oppose them, but I’d rather use the democratic process to try to fix them then to have the SC usurp the power to re-write the Constitution. > \*\* It’s easy to be sanguine about hypotheticals on this board. I wonder if you’d be so calm as a criminal case defendant before such a judge. I don’t think the Court has “usurped” anything. Even when _Marbury v. Madison_ was decided I’m not aware that there was any big hulabaloo about the Court ruling on constitutionality, even from Thomas Jefferson who was really pissed at the courts and judges in general at the time. Legal historians are free to set me straight if I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/51 "2003-08-15T19:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Let the atheists have their way, take down the plaque, burn the bibles and the churches, whatever makes them happy. Separation of church and state is not the issue here. > Control is the issue. > > It all doesn’t matter, God is Love, He is compassionate, and all will pass into His presence.Love \*\* Believe it or not, the US is made up more than just christians and Atheists. You will find every other religion in the US, along with a large number of christians, opposed to having the commandments in the courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/52 "2003-08-15T19:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*The word “congress” is also there for a reason, but that aside… \*\* Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1 provides that all those born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States, and no state can make any law that abridges the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States. One of those privileges is freedom from the types of laws prohibited by the First Amendment. \*\* > [@](#): > > Can anyone show where the Constitution authorizes the FedGov to allocate foreign-aid expenditures? \*\* Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution authorizes Congress to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. It is well within Congressional discretion to decide that aid to foreign countries serves the common defense and general welfare of the United States because, as we have learned so clearly over the last few years, things that happen in other countries can affect the security and welfare of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/53 "2003-08-15T19:49:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **Razorsharp** : … the faux “concern” for the Constitution’s integrity over the placement of the Ten Commandments is, in reality, a not so thinly veiled attack on religion as a whole, and Christianity in particular. Then why do you think that so many Christians wanting to have the monument removed? I am one. And there are others here that have indicated they are Christian in both words and deed. Also, do you consider the Ten Commandments to be exclusively Christian? Finally, how can you be certain of what is in the mind of other human beings? Aren’t they the authorities on their motives? ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/54 "2003-08-15T20:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Razorsharp_ > The word “congress” is also there for a reason, but that aside… And the Establishment Clause applies to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment. Even Judge Moore decided not to argue this point. And, believe me, he argued some pretty damned stupid points in his appeal. You might be surprised to learn that there have been cases about the First Amendment before. Supreme Court decisions in those cases are precedent. But I think we’re getting way off track with discussions of public expenditures. The use of public money is not the issue. Moore’s position as Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court is the issue. As Chief Justice, Moore is in charge of what is displayed in the rotunda. He placed the Ten Commandments there and refused requests by others to place historically significant displays (e.g., the text of the “I Have a Dream” speech) in the rotunda because they would “diminish the very purpose of the Ten Commandments monument” – that is, to acknowledge God’s law and God’s sovereignty, according to Moore’s testimony. The monument was put there with the primary purpose of advancing a religious viewpoint. And the monument cannot be avoided by people entering the courthouse. But the bigger issue, in my opinion, is his refusal to abide by the court’s order. It’s inexcusable for a judge, who has sworn to uphold the law, to refuse to follow a court’s order. He might be mad that the courts didn’t buy his arguments, but he should respect the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/55 "2003-08-15T20:25:54Z")
Maybe when a muslim judge has a “Five Pillars of Islam” monument installed, conservatives like december will understand the discomfort that some of us would feel at seeing the Ten Commands in a State sponsored building, and why we have the First and Fourteenth Amendments. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/56 "2003-08-15T20:27:00Z")
There is a pretty good discussion of this issue and case going on over in the _Pit_. It is a fairly elevated discussion by the standards of that forum, in some respects more rational and level headed that what I am reading here—which to some limited extent involves some of the habitual blow-hards proclaiming the infallibility of their own personal judgments on matters they know precious little about. In any event the _Pit_ thread provides a convoluted link to the 11th Circuit decision we seem to be using as the launch platform for this debate. [Here is another one that may be more direct. Note that this is a PDF file](http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/religion/glsrthmre70103opn.pdf) Some of us may be well advised to read the case before you go any farther with this discussion. The decision deals with the “make no law” argument, the “religious purpose” argument, and the “secular purpose” argument and pretty well demonstrates that the Chief Justice of Alabama is a demagogue and that his privately funded monument to the Sovereignty of God is an outrage. Read the case, only 50 pages, and learn something. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/57 "2003-08-15T20:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Know\_Nothing \* > \*\*Believe it or not, the US is made up more than just christians and Atheists. You will find every other religion in the US, along with a large number of christians, opposed to having the commandments in the courtroom. \*\* The word Christian does not appear in my quote. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/58 "2003-08-15T20:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Maybe when a muslim judge has a “Five Pillars of Islam” monument installed, conservatives like december will understand the discomfort that some of us would feel at seeing the Ten Commands in a State sponsored building, and why we have the First and Fourteenth Amendments. \*\* The Judge is right about the law and constitution being based on spiritual principles. Why would anyone object to the principles of honesty, integrity, and respect for others as taught by anyone, or any religion. What is there to feel uncomfortable about. This is not an issue of separation, just another nit-picking bash by the atheists. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/59 "2003-08-15T20:58:39Z")
Thanks for the link **Spavined Gelding**. My favorite part is on page 29 > [@](#): > > The Chief Justice argues that the Ten Commandments, as he has presented them in the monument, do not involve the duties individuals owe to the Creator, and therefore they are not religious; instead, he says, they represent the moral foundation of secular duties that individuals owe to society. Yup, nothing says secular more than “I am the Lord Thy God, Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me”. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/60 "2003-08-15T21:02:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*The Judge is right about the law and constitution being based on spiritual principles. Why would anyone object to the principles of honesty, integrity, and respect for others as taught by anyone, or any religion. What is there to feel uncomfortable about. This is not an issue of separation, just another nit-picking bash by the atheists. \*\* **Lekatt** , you were able to find out the religion(s) or lack there of of the 3 people that have started this lawsuit? Please cite this as I haven’t been able to find it. Thanks!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=4)