# Deficit committee blows up, any surprise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555 "2011-11-20T16:22:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/21 "2011-11-20T17:27:36Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The Tea Part and Republicans exist only in so far as the electorate allows them to. They present ideas and people vote. It’s a two party system, so any strength the Republicans/TP have is a direct result of failures by the Democratic Party. This is absurd. On the conservative side you have people who are actively working to subvert democracy and the foundation of this country. On the other side you have people who try to explain the situation to people who are willfully ignorant and refuse to listen. But somehow it’s not the fault of the people who are doing the harm. Instead, we must shoot the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/22 "2011-11-20T17:32:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So to be clear, you feel that the democrats are at fault because they were insufficiently effective as to curtail the evils done by the republicans, right? > > Is the conclusion we’re supposed to take from this is that we should support republicans? The conclusion you should draw from that is that politics and the economy are far more complicated than blind devotion to a two party system. You guys so desperately need to blame the Republicans, and any challenge to that freaks you right the fuck out. And no, you in no way should support the Republicans, no one in their right mind should support the Republicans, but with only two parties to choose from, it’s hardly surprising that a huge chunk of the population can’t bring themselves to vote [D]. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > But the thing you were responding to wasn’t about party politics. They simply said that the majority of Americans believe that tax increases and spending cuts is the most reasonable solution, That’s not an answer to anything. That’s like saying you need “diet and exercise” to lose weight. It’s entirely obvious and devoid of any meaningful information. 100% of the population could _believe_ tax increases and spending cuts are needed, but what taxes do you increase and what spending do you cut? Are you saying you want to increase taxes on the poor and make cuts to Medicaid? Doubt it. The deficit committee is imploding because no one in the electorate is willing to increase their taxes or face spending cuts. They’ll point to other people, no shortage of that. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s such a casually extremist position that I don’t even really think you know what you’re saying. Yup, keep bitching about Republicans and covering up for Democrats, nothing extremist in that position. So to recap: OP bitches about Republicans, no one cares. Third post mocks that, people freak out. Nothing at all religious about your sacred ox being gored. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/23 "2011-11-20T17:36:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This is absurd. > > On the conservative side you have people who are actively working to subvert democracy and the foundation of this country. On the other side you have people who try to explain the situation to people who are willfully ignorant and refuse to listen. But somehow it’s not the fault of the people who are doing the harm. Instead, we must shoot the messenger. If the messenger sucks, at some point you need a new messenger. The people you describe as, “on the other side” are failing you and that should really piss you off, but it doesn’t. How many professional teams can fail year after year and not fire the coaching staff. But all you can do, as evident in this thread, is bitch that the other team plays dirty. Everyone knows they play dirty, but sitting back and whining isn’t going to win elections. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/24 "2011-11-20T17:38:33Z")
What board have you been reading for years that you think democrats here aren’t pissed off at how weak spined democrats are, and how often they’ve caved into evil? It’s more common than praise for the democrats. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/25 "2011-11-20T17:44:22Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What board have you been reading for years that you think democrats here aren’t pissed off at how weak spined democrats are, and how often they’ve caved into evil? It’s more common than praise for the democrats. It is typical righty crap. They make a claim that you did something you did not do and then expect you to defend it. The Dems get hell from the leftys on this board and everywhere else. Let me see the right accept Bush’s policies for the enormous debt and we will have a start. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/26 "2011-11-20T17:44:24Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > But all you can do, as evident in this thread, is bitch that the other team plays dirty. No, I’m trying to point out that it is the Republican party who will not budge on taxes. Therefore, they are at fault; not the Democarats. Let me try to explain it so that even a Teabagger can understand: A person has two apples, and he owes someone three apples. If he stops eating apples (i.e., he cuts his ‘entitlement’), then he’s still an apple short. He needs to go to the tree and get another apple (i.e., raise taxes). But he won’t do it because he doesn’t think he should have to go out to the tree. Let someone who has no apples make more apples appear! Keep your hands off of mine! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/27 "2011-11-20T17:46:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What board have you been reading for years that you think democrats here aren’t pissed off at how weak spined democrats are, and how often they’ve caved into evil? It’s more common than praise for the democrats. I wish the Democratic Ralphies would snap on the Republican Scut Farkuses. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/28 "2011-11-20T17:51:25Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What did they do? They blew their control of the WH, house, and senate. They botched a series of elections. They failed to get a coherent message out. They failed to frame issues in a way that made sense to the electorate. It was all a big game of chicken, and they blinked. > > In a democracy, we get the government we deserve, no we have to bend over and take it. You think that we applaud the democrats for their spines? Fuck no. I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’d vote democrat on one principle and one principle alone: damage control. That alone should say quite a bit about your ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/29 "2011-11-20T17:51:50Z")
At least we might get some dep defense cuts as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/30 "2011-11-20T17:51:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > That’s not an answer to anything. That’s like saying you need “diet and exercise” to lose weight. It’s entirely obvious and devoid of any meaningful information. 100% of the population could _believe_ tax increases and spending cuts are needed, but what taxes do you increase and what spending do you cut? The point is that one of the parties is saying that they will not tolerate any form of excercise, ever, in any form whatsoever. They will sit on the couch all day and never move. ALL of the weight loss must come from cutting the diet. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/31 "2011-11-20T18:02:06Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > At least we might get some dep defense cuts as a result. I wouldn’t count on anything significant. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/32 "2011-11-20T18:02:38Z")
It’s funny because the pols and media (even supposedly ultra-liberal MSNBC) are trying to pretend that the debt matters all the sudden. Like it caused our current economic woes or something. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/33 "2011-11-20T18:06:37Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, both sides are always equally right. > > Yes, because every time we’ve had a top marginal rate above 35%, the country has economically floundered. I’m amazed that the US has managed to somehow survive the greatest economic boom in history while the top marginal rates were double what they are now. The current rate is the absolute top rate at which you can have a functional economy, and if it’s raised even one bit, even on a tiny amount of people, the whole thing will come crumbling down, because the primary hinderance to economic activity in this country is the top marginal bracket on income. We’re on the teetering edge - if we increase the top 1%'s taxes by 1%, then tomorrow it’s Mad Max. There have been various Republican proposals, like Sen. Toomey’s, that included higher taxes by eliminating deductions and closing loopholes. Democratic proposals that would allow the Bush tax cuts to expire would raise the top marginal rate by 4.6 percentage points, not 1%. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/34 "2011-11-20T18:19:29Z")
[http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/20/krugman-only-fools-and-clowns-believe-republican-ideology/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/20/krugman-only-fools-and-clowns-believe-republican-ideology/) Here is Krugman on TV today explaining the Repub stance is only believed in by 'fools and clowns". He has it right as this board clearly demonstrates. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/35 "2011-11-20T18:23:03Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What do you think the democrats did to cause high levels of debt? You shouldn’t need to ask me that. Critical thinking would involve having that has the topic discussion, not a bunch of liberals bitching about Republicans. You and \*\*gonzomax \*\*need to be able to answer that question, it’s call introspection. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/36 "2011-11-20T18:33:57Z")
One thing people should realize is that it isn’t a physical law that both sides are equally at fault. Sometimes one side has embraced a lot of stupid things. Like now. The Republicans want to cut taxes because their base believes that this raises GDP in all cases. That isn’t true. So their stance is destructive on the face. Compromising with them because of their stupid and self-destructive beliefs is bad for the country. But the Democrats are willing to do that in the name of getting something done. Is there some fault with Dems, sure. But they have a small share of the blame for the stupidity the Right want to inflict on the country. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/37 "2011-11-20T18:34:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > You shouldn’t need to ask me that. Critical thinking would involve having that has the topic discussion, not a bunch of liberals bitching about Republicans. > > You and \*\*gonzomax \*\*need to be able to answer that question, it’s call introspection. Thank you for proving Krugman is right . ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/38 "2011-11-20T18:37:26Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What board have you been reading for years that you think democrats here aren’t pissed off at how weak spined democrats are, and how often they’ve caved into evil? It’s more common than praise for the democrats. But far less common than lefties bitching about how evil the righties are, as evidence by this thread and the next quote: > [@gonzomax](#): > > It is typical righty crap. > … > Let me see the right accept Bush’s policies for the enormous debt and we will have a start. They won’t, that’s what makes them conservative, it’s what gives them party unity. Again you bitch about the right. Fix the left and the right won’t be able to filibuster a toilet stall. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, I’m trying to point out that it is the Republican party who will not budge on taxes. Therefore, they are at fault; not the Democarats. And why won’t they? And why are they getting support for it? And whose fault is that? Republicans will budge on taxes only as much as the[ir] voters want them to. McDonald’s will deep-fry as many things as their customers want. Right now, they have no problem finding a significant number of voters who want lower taxes on the rich, and budget cuts to the poor. Whose fault is that? > [@Euphonious Polemic](#): > > The point is that one of the parties is saying that they will not tolerate any form of excercise, ever, in any form whatsoever. They will sit on the couch all day and never move. ALL of the weight loss must come from cutting the diet. That is the message the right proposed, and it’s what voters wanted to hear, which is what get’s them elected over and over and over. It’s why there is such a huge market for ineffective workout crap and lethal diet pills. You can try to blame McDonald’s for making people fat, or you can blame the general ignorance and lack of a viable alternative. > [@Procrustus](#): > > ``` > At least we might get some dep defense cuts as a result. > > ``` The largest social welfare program in the world? Not bloody likely. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/39 "2011-11-20T18:39:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > ``` > http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/2...ican-ideology/ Here is Krugman on TV today explaining the Repub stance is only believed in by 'fools and clowns" > > ``` > [@gonzomax](#): > > Thank you for proving Krugman is right . Are you calling me a fool and a clown? That’s what it sounds like. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/40 "2011-11-20T18:47:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > One thing people should realize is that it isn’t a physical law that both sides are equally at fault. Sometimes one side has embraced a lot of stupid things. Like now. > > The Republicans want to cut taxes because their base believes that this raises GDP in all cases. That isn’t true. So their stance is destructive on the face. Compromising with them because of their stupid and self-destructive beliefs is bad for the country. But the Democrats are willing to do that in the name of getting something done. > > Is there some fault with Dems, sure. But they have a small share of the blame for the stupidity the Right want to inflict on the country. If there are only two choices, where one is correct and the other is wrong, who is to blame when voters consistently choose the one that is wrong? There are two factors at play: one is the notion of coming up with horribly destructive policies; the other is using those policies to win elections. Look at the comment by \*\*Budget Player Cadet \*\*, _“I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’d vote democrat on one principle and one principle alone: damage control.”_ Is that really the best way to get voters out to the ballot boxes? That alone should say quite a bit about how much the Dems are to blame. If Republicans proposed a law requiring arsenic in our water supply, that would be a horrible policy. If they got it passed it would be because the Democrats allowed it to happen. Unless there is a third party we can blame this all on. I’m okay if you want to pin it all on Lieberman. Right now, the Democratic Party can’t convince people that drinking arsenic is bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555.md?page=3)