# Deficit committee blows up, any surprise? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555 "2011-11-20T16:22:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/41 "2011-11-20T18:47:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Thank you for proving Krugman is right . > [@emacknight](#): > > Are you calling me a fool and a clown? That’s what it sounds like. I agree. gonzomax, you have been told over and over again that you can’t do this. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/42 "2011-11-20T19:02:23Z")
I did not say it. Krugman did. I did however suggest there are people on the board who act exactly like Krugman said they do. When I suggested that, I knew someone would prove the case. But Marley, i called nobody a name. i was careful not to. Good luck following the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/43 "2011-11-20T19:14:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I did not say it. Krugman did. I did however suggest there are people on the board who act exactly like Krugman said they do. When I suggested that, I knew someone would prove the case. But Marley, i called nobody a name. i was careful not to. Good luck following the discussion. Krugman said nothing about how anyone is acting. He said “My hypothesis is maybe this is an ideology that only fools and clowns can actually believe in, and this is the Republican problem.” Linking and quoting from that article is fine because the statement is from Krugman and he’s not speaking about anyone specifically. When you quoted **emacknight** and saying “Thank you for proving Krugman is right .” it was pretty obvious that you were calling **emacknight** a fool and a clown, and that is plainly against the rules. If you want to argue about that, start a thread in ATMB and don’t post about it again in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/44 "2011-11-21T01:24:13Z")
As far as I can tell, the simple reason it failed is that the Republicans won’t sign on to a deal that doesn’t extend the Bush tax cuts on income over $250,000, and the Democrats won’t sign on to a deal that isn’t better than letting the Bush tax cuts all expire and the cuts in the trigger take effect. It’s not really in either party’s interest to reach a deal, at least as long as the GOP thinks it can get a better deal after the 2012 elections. I’m going to say that the few of us who were saying that Obama got a good deal out of the debt ceiling standoff are being proved right. He got a deal that’s good enough to keep the Congressional Democrats from jumping at whatever scraps the GOP might offer. If the Democrats can look likely to stay in power long enough to let the Bush tax cuts expire, maybe the GOP will offer up a better deal than the cuts in the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/45 "2011-11-21T01:32:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **emacknight** : > You shouldn’t need to ask me that. Critical thinking would involve having that has the topic discussion, not a bunch of liberals bitching about Republicans. So in other words, you don’t like the topic of discussion, so you complain that it’s not the topic of discussion? What do you think a discussion _is_, if it’s not the questions people are asking? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/46 "2011-11-21T02:52:21Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > That’s not an answer to anything. Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you offer a solution for any problem in Great Debates, except to lay a blanket of blame over everyone in the country. How helpful is THAT? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/47 "2011-11-21T06:42:21Z")
If it was only a stalling tactic, if that’s all it ever was, then good. Sort of. The Pubbies were determined to assume the role of the alpha lemmings and stampeding straight over the edge. This winsome fantasy of super-duperness didn’t fool anybody, but at least the guy got talked down off the ledge for a while. And we can’t say for sure what the guy will do tomorrow, because the guy’s nuts. Under certain desperate and trying circumstances, an unworkable scheme is better than all the other options, simply by buying time. Achmed the Sneaky was condemned by the Caliph to early retirement. Just before he was to be led away, he cried out to the Caliph: “Great One, it is a terrible waste to execute the only man who knows how to teach a horse to sing!” “What nonsense is this?” “It is true, Great One. You are widely known for having the finest stables in the world, think how much more admired you might be if your horses could sing!” “And how long would this take?” “Six months, Great One, and your stable will sound like a heavenly chorus!” “Very well. The sentence is postponed for six months. If, at the end of that time you have taught my horses to sing, the sentence will be voided. If not, then it will proceed.” His brother soon heard the news, and rushed to the stables. “What have you done, you fool! You cannot teach a horse to sing, not in six months, or six years, or six lifetimes! No man can do that!” “Probably so. But in six months, the Caliph might suddenly die, and the new Caliph declare an amnesty. Or perhaps after a few months, they will stop paying attention to me, and I can make myself scarce, and then altogether absent. Or perhaps I can find a way to make myself valuable to the Caliph.” “And if none of those things happen?” “Then perhaps I can teach a horse to sing.” ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/48 "2011-11-21T14:20:22Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > If there are only two choices, where one is correct and the other is wrong, who is to blame when voters consistently choose the one that is wrong? > > There are two factors at play: one is the notion of coming up with horribly destructive policies; the other is using those policies to win elections. Look at the comment by \*\*Budget Player Cadet \*\*, _“I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’d vote democrat on one principle and one principle alone: damage control.”_ > > Is that really the best way to get voters out to the ballot boxes? That alone should say quite a bit about how much the Dems are to blame. > > If Republicans proposed a law requiring arsenic in our water supply, that would be a horrible policy. If they got it passed it would be because the Democrats allowed it to happen. Unless there is a third party we can blame this all on. I’m okay if you want to pin it all on Lieberman. Right now, the Democratic Party can’t convince people that drinking arsenic is bad. Yes, as a matter of fact, the electorat has become very disconnected from the process. This is no surprise, it happens all over the world. In your example, however, you would not assign any blame to the republicans for proposing that arsenic should be put in the water supply. That is the fundamental problem (and it applies to both sides, btw). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/49 "2011-11-21T14:35:11Z")
This is silly. The Republicans have been quite vocal for years about their intent to manufacture a deficit crisis in order to force their legislative agenda. That’s what “Starve the Beast” means – slashing revenue to the point where popular programs must be eliminated through fiscal necessity, not because the voters want them eliminated. So, yes, of course the Republicans are responsible for this situation. They’ve been working to bring it about for decades. That’s why they’ll never compromise. They’re not interested in “solving the problem” because the whole point of creating the problem was to give them an excuse to do away with government spending that benefits the poor and middle class. Even the push to do something about the deficit RIGHT NOW is part of this plan. We’re in the middle of a recession. We SHOULD be running a big deficit right now to help get us out of it. The only reason the Republicans want to do it now is that with tax revenue down because of the poor economy, they know they can use the numbers to call for deeper cuts. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/50 "2011-11-21T16:31:08Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > If there are only two choices, where one is correct and the other is wrong, who is to blame when voters consistently choose the one that is wrong? > > … Right now, the Democratic Party can’t convince people that drinking arsenic is bad. I notice that Mr. **Night** is a fan of the rhetorical question but, were we in the Pit, I might paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen and write, “ **emack** , You’re no Socrates.” I agree that the Demos can’t even seem to convince people about arsenic. Rational and progressive thinkers regard this as sad for America. Some right-wing hypocrites view it as reason for glee. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/51 "2011-11-21T16:53:02Z")
If the automatic cuts don’t happen, it is all for the best. I personally would like to see defense slashed, but we need work. We need jobs. That is why we should spend half the defense money in NASA and research. Create jobs and build for the future. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/52 "2011-11-21T17:15:29Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Right now, the Democratic Party can’t convince people that drinking arsenic is bad. No, right now, everyone is voting on a different issue. People are convinced that the Democrats are right–the polls say so. But, for some reason, they keep voting in people who disagree. Logically, there must be something else they like about them. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/53 "2011-11-21T17:26:32Z")
Weird. The deficit was caused by waging 2 unpaid for wars, cutting taxes on the rich, and an enormous giveaway drug program for the drug companies. The solution: cut Medicare and Social Security. The crash was a product of the banking giants and financial packages like CDOs and SWAPS. The solution: cut Medicare and Social Security. Oh yes, I forgot. Cut taxes. We don’t need no stinking revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/54 "2011-11-21T20:00:10Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > This is silly. Agreed. > [@](#): > > So, yes, of course the Republicans are responsible for this situation. They’ve been working to bring it about for decades. That’s why they’ll never compromise. > [@](#): > > [Some key Republicans broke with their party’s anti-tax orthodoxy by backing a proposal by panel member Sen. Pat Toomey, R-Pennsylvania, that included $400 billion in increased revenue… > > The plan also included $800 billion in spending cuts, thereby hitting the minimum threshold of $1.2 trillion in deficit reduction… > > Democrats, however, called the measure unacceptable in part because it didn’t phase out the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, estimated by nonpartisan budget analysts to cost $800 billion over the next decade. > > For their part, Democrats countered with a proposal to generate $400 billion in new revenue strictly from increased tax collections. At the same time, they wanted to spend $700 billion to help boost the economy, including an extension of the payroll tax cut, extended unemployment benefit payments and money to permanently prevent cuts in payments to doctors who treat Medicare patients.]([http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/21/politics/super-committee/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/21/politics/super-committee/index.html)) So the Democrats’ idea of a compromise is to raise taxes and increase spending by $300 billion overall, and thereby cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion. I agree - “silly” is the word. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/55 "2011-11-21T20:16:32Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The majority of voters in the country believe that a combination of government cuts and tax increases is necessary to fix the deficit. > Could you point to an example where the Republican members of the deficit committee were working hard to come up with a solution that would be acceptable to all members, be beneficial to the country, and importantly, represent the wishes of most of the voters? > > Thanks in advance. I would like to see the same thing from Democrats. For as steadfast the Republican party is against raising taxes, the Democratic party is just as steadfast against (meaningful) cuts to entitlement programs. So, please, spare us the usual “Democrats = good, Republicans = bad” line that gets used often around here. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/56 "2011-11-21T20:18:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Let me try to explain it so that even a Teabagger can understand: A person has two apples, and he owes someone three apples. If he stops eating apples (i.e., he cuts his ‘entitlement’), then he’s still an apple short. He needs to go to the tree and get another apple (i.e., raise taxes). But he won’t do it because he doesn’t think he should have to go out to the tree. Let someone who has no apples make more apples appear! Keep your hands off of mine! But it takes energy to go out and shake that tree to collect and deliver the apple. So you have to eat at least some part of the two that you have in order to obtain the additional apple. Only now you have to plan ahead because it’s not just the one apple you need, but also the eaten portion of the two you started with. And the more apples you plan on bringing back, the more you need to eat up front so as to have the energy to procure and deliver them. In fact, if you borrow more apples to fuel up with, you can potentially bring back even _more_ apples. Of course, all of this nonsense can be foregone if you simply make no trips to the orchard, eat the apples you have, plant the seeds and leave instructions for your children to pay the debt when the trees start bearing fruit. Never mind the kids won’t have anything to eat in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/57 "2011-11-21T20:19:20Z")
The greater burden on solving the deficit problem should surely be on the Republicans, given that they’re the only one saying there is a deficit problem to begin with. The problem that the Democrats are trying to solve is that the economy stinks right now, and the solution to that is government deficit. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/58 "2011-11-21T20:21:40Z")
I was hoping that this thread wouldn’t be the typical partisan one, but I was wrong. I think that this stalemate will continue until both parties are honest and bulldog their way to victory. The Republicans need to stop the garbage about “saving” entitlements and admit that they want a quasi-libertarian, pre-1932 small federal government limited to constitutional functions, except for a much larger defense system. They want the feds out of most everything. The Dems need to stop this “paying their fair share” argument and admit that they want a quasi-socialist country with government providing cradle to grave social services funded by confiscatory taxes on the wealthy and deficit spending. Almost as sickening as the false rhetoric on each side is the lack of any will to do anything. I follow politics, but didn’t realize until last week that these spending cuts don’t kick in until January of 2013. A full year! So, what did the Republicans get out of the deficit deal in August? A debt ceiling increase with no cuts in spending. What did the Dems get? Just what they wanted. Maybe Obama wasn’t so spineless after all, and maybe the Tea Party was right for urging “no” votes? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/59 "2011-11-21T20:26:13Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > The Dems need to stop this “paying their fair share” argument and admit that they want a quasi-socialist country with government providing cradle to grave social services funded by confiscatory taxes on the wealthy and deficit spending. That’s pure bullshit. The left is specifically against deficit spending. It’s the right that wants to _cut taxes_ to make up for deficits. As for the other nonsense about cradle-to-grave and confiscatory taxes, that’s simply a straw man view of the left’s agenda as granted by the right-wing misinformation bubble. The left in this country wants to bring us into the 21st century, with the other first-world economies. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555/60 "2011-11-21T20:26:47Z")
I wonder what what have to happen in order for people to stop accepting “both sides are equally guilty” as a law of nature. If one side started raping babies to death on live TV, would people still react by saying “YEAH BUT A BLOGGER ON YOUR SIDE SAID SOMETHING BAD ONCE, EQUAL!!!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deficit-committee-blows-up-any-surprise/603555.md?page=4)