# Defining a Cult **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862 "2002-04-14T20:29:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/1 "2002-04-14T21:19:38Z")
ACK, Those who wish to consider our church a cult shall so consider it. There’s little, if anything, one can do to educate someone away from a _relgiously-driven_ mandate to consider us cultists. If they stop considering us cultists, then they can’t save us. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/2 "2002-04-15T01:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > On what basis do you identify the COJCOLDS as a cult in 2002? Seeing as that poster already provided the evidence that the LDS Church is not a cult, the only reason left for that very same poster to declare it a cult is prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/3 "2002-04-15T10:15:39Z")
tom’s hit the nail on the head. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/4 "2002-04-15T11:43:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > The World book Encyclopedia, pg 1185 clearly states…Cult is a religiuos group devoted to a living leader, a new teaching, or an unusual practice…Through out history, many religiuos groups have been classified as cults. Christianity began as a cult within Judaism and developed into an established church. In modern times groups that began as cults and developed into organized churches include the Quakers, Mormons, Rosicrucians, Swedenborgians, Christian Scientists, Methodist, Jehovahs Witnesses, and seventh-Day adventists…Such groups rarely call themselves cults and generally reject the term… You might want to notice that you just said “Christianity rarely calls itself a cult and generally rejects the term.” Given your, shall we say, creative method of quoting a reference, it’s kind of hard to tell which part of the above quote is you speaking and which part of it is you quoting something else, so one could easily wonder what the point you’re really trying to make. > [@](#): > > There is absolutely no doubt that Joe Smith came up with his own teaching within Christanity And this you know exactly how? Did God Himself appear to you and say, “Behold! Joseph Smith created a new religion!” I daresay He didn’t. What you just posted is what’s commonly referred to as an opinion. Yet, you’ve posted it as fact. That’s kind of frowned on in these parts. > [@](#): > > and there is also no doubt that Mormonism is a cult Opinion. Just because you don’t have any doubts about what someone else tells you doesn’t mean the rest of the world doesn’t. > [@](#): > > that has developed into an organised church. We prefer to say we began as an organized church. > [@](#): > > It was based on new teachings We prefer to say we brought back the original teachings. You see, this is part of the human condition known as beliefs. You should also notice that I prefaced this comment and the one before it with “we prefer to say,” clearly indicating that it is an opinion. > [@](#): > > and displays some very unusual practices. So the criteria for my belief system is if you find it “usual?” Who died and made you Jesus Christ? > [@](#): > > However they reject the term as do any other cult. Kind of like that group you referred to in your own comment above, hey? Who were they again? Oh, yeah. You called them Christians. > [@](#): > > The article is very interesting and I have only taken segments out of it…check it out…My oppinion…Mormonism is absolutely cult. Oh, so now you finally state it as an opinion. Sadly, though, this contradicts the stuff you posted above and shows your bias. Oh, and I’m quite grown up. Last time I checked, I wasn’t the one to appear on this board and bash someone’s religion just because I’m bigoted against LDS. That was you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/5 "2002-04-15T12:43:12Z")
ACK, The Prophet’s every action isn’t inspired by God except in the sense that whatever a believer does good is inspired. The way I understand the Church’s teaching is that what the Prophet does, in regards to the Church, is 100% inspired. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/6 "2002-04-15T14:29:41Z")
You know, vanilla; I’ve never been to a party with the man. 😉 Angel, you’d do well to emulate vanilla’s behaviour here. She had, shall we say, a rough spot regarding approaches to other religious traditions on this board before and her approach now towards the same is exemplary. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/7 "2002-04-15T17:17:13Z")
That’s quite disingenuous of you, Angel. Care to try defining Honesty? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/8 "2002-04-15T22:51:07Z")
[Lantern: You’ve been introduced.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=109711) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/9 "2002-04-16T04:07:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > And no, **Monty** does not need to grow up. As long as I’ve known him, he’s been nothing but polite, eloquent and intelligent. Thanks, Guin. How long before someone comes in and says, “Heck, you obviously haven’t known him long enough!”? Seriously…thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/10 "2002-04-17T02:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > It is unusual for a thread to be replied to by 99.9%LDS > Looks stacked to me Accusing someone who disagrees with you of being a member of the group you hate because they disagree with you is quite likely the lamest stunt pulled on this board. > [@](#): > > I did not write the World Book…Im only quoting from it and asking questions…and getting slammed for it. You’re getting slammed because you are not “only quoting” from it. You are dishonestly manipulating the quotes you use. Any decent Critical Thinking teacher would flunk you for that. > [@](#): > > I always thought these encyclodedias were credible. They may be; however, you are not. > [@](#): > > Which ones should I replace them with. Does it matter? After all, you’re probably going to continue with your dishonest manipulation. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/11 "2002-04-17T10:17:55Z")
Having a temper != not having a brain. And the next lamest stunt is _ad hominem_ attacks. Here are two definitions (with my bolding) from two sources so you can understand what it is. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: [1]ad ho·mi·nem > Pronunciation: (’)ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m > Function: adjective > Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person > Date: 1598 > 1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect > \*\*2 : marked by an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made > _Merriam-Webster online dictionary_ & > [@](#): > > ad hom·i·nem Pronunciation Key (hm-nm, -nm) > adj. > Appealing to personal considerations **rather than to logic or reason** : Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives. > _[http://www.dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com)_ _Ad hominem_ falls into the category of Logical Fallacies. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/12 "2002-04-17T10:19:28Z")
Drat. The second quote should’ve had only “rather than to logic or reason” in bold. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/13 "2002-04-17T22:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > It is unusual for a thread to be replied to by 99.9%LDS > Looks stacked to me Now, if there were a thread with only 99.9% of the posters responding to it being members of the LDS church, you appraisal may be correct. As it is, you merely mentioned that it’s not usual for a thread to have such a response, but you didn’t say that it’s this thread. You intimated it’s this thread, which is one of the reasons why I called your methodology here disingenuous. “Looks stacked to me” isn’t an objective description, anyway. You could be looking at a very fair (perfect, even) election and still erroneiously conclude that it “looks stack.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/14 "2002-04-19T13:42:03Z")
My fan club’s supposed to be paying dues? Okay, now I’m mad at them! \ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/15 "2002-04-19T13:44:46Z")
What the heck is that smilie doing there?! It’s supposed to read “just kidding” in between the arrows. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/16 "2002-04-19T14:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Father of Loki \* > Don’t take what the Mormons say too much to heart, Angelslantern. They embellish their ‘proofs’ to support their arguments, too. (‘99.9% pure.’) 🙂 Yep, yet another _ad hominem_ attack. Accusing someone of ebellishing one argument in order to discredit them in another argument certainly falls into that category. Care to address exactly how this justifies telling a fib? > [@](#): > > I used to catch my Mormon friend and some of his brethren lying to me. I especially appreciated the times (not) when they pretended they knew nothing about some evidence against their church, and then it would sometimes come out later in another conversation that at least some of them really did know about it. Hard to keep all that “faith promoting church history” straight, I guess. ROFLOL Apparently for them it was. Also apparently, it’s not all that hard for folks to get it straight elswhere. > [@](#): > > Now Monty will probably be mad at me, too - again. Only if you lie. > [@](#): > > Hey Monty! I see you’re still quoting your logic rules. They’re not my rules. > [@](#): > > Too bad you seem to forget them at times when building your own arguments. Eg. Your “Having a temper != not having a brain.” to Angel. See if you can figure out what logic rules you’re breaking here. None. The proof of that has already been provided to you by another poster, one who self-describes as not being in my fan club. > [@](#): > > And your next comment to her: “And the next lamest stunt is ad hominem attacks.” Where is this written? Well, any decent book on Critical Thinking, Speech, or Debate has a section concerning logical fallacies. > [@](#): > > Your “Made up logic to beat Angel up with” book? Interesting title you posit there. Too bad it has no basis in reality. > [@](#): > > Maybe the next lamest stunt is someone who quotes a bunch of rules, and then doesn’t follow them themselves. Do you know what that type of reasoning is called? That would be called hypocrisy. But it doesn’t apply here, as DMC has already proven. > [@](#): > > Now where’s my bullet proof vest and flak jacket. Ah, to heck with it. Maybe I’ll just hit and run. > > Now remember - NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS. Monty said. 🙂 Quaint. See one particular posting above for usage of that word. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/17 "2002-04-19T14:22:40Z")
Er, See one particular posting in The BBQ Pit thread for which I already provided a link for usage of the word “quaint.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/18 "2002-04-19T22:27:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Father of Loki \* > Hey Monty! I see you’re still quoting your logic rules. Too bad you seem to forget them at times when building your own arguments. Eg. Your “Having a temper != not having a brain.” to Angel. See if you can figure out what logic rules you’re breaking here. > And your next comment to her: “And the next lamest stunt is ad hominem attacks.” Where is this written? Since you asked, and as I’ve already informed you they’re not my logic rules, here is a listing, thanks to otto3883 in a thead appropriately entitled _Logical Fallacies_: [http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm](http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/19 "2002-04-20T17:09:51Z")
And exactly where have I flipped out in this thread? Try to answerr honestly. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/20 "2002-04-20T18:09:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > This is the type of responce that is acceptable…not name calling and discreditations and anger. Do you realize this is the 2nd time in this very thread you’ve discredited yourself? Or would you care to explain how “Grow up Monty” [posted at 04-15-2002 12:27 AM by Angelslantern] is acceptable? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862.md?page=2)