# Defining a Cult **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862 "2002-04-14T20:29:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/21 "2002-04-20T23:58:25Z")
“Just got word?!?!?!” Bwhahahahahahahahahaha! Look on page one of this very thread for a posting addressed directly to you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/22 "2002-04-21T01:54:40Z")
Tom, Did you notice that AL has fallen back into assuming anyone disagreeing with him is automatically LDS? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/23 "2002-04-21T20:53:51Z")
AL: Did you bother to heed tomndebb’s advice and show your [sub][Mister Subliminal]“imaginary”[/Mister subliminal][sup]\*[/sup][/sub] friend this thread and ask his opinions about your own postings in it? [sub][sup]\*[/sup]SNL reference[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/24 "2002-04-15T01:21:11Z")
:: ahem :: [What’s the difference between a church and a cult?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/25 "2002-04-14T22:41:31Z")
There are four general meanings of the word cult as it is used in American English. 1. as a direct cognate translation of the Latin _cultus_, meaning any well-organized set of religious beliefs.\* In this sense, the various sects and denominations of Christianity and Islam could each be called cults. 2. any religious group with a strong connection to a living or recently-deceased leader. In this case the LDS could be called a cult _up until the death of Brigham Young_, at which point the direct connection to Joseph Smith was broken. (On the other hand, Christianity would be a cult of Jesus, in this sense, until the death of the first generation of Apostles. Woudn’t this definition irk some fundies?) 3. a nominally religious-based group enforcing control over all aspects of the lives of its adherents in the manner described in the previous posts. 4. any religious group opposed by various fundie groups. \*Because of #4 and #3, the RCC gets in trouble every once in a while when some idiotic translator does a word-for-word substitution from some Latin document and the church appears to be accusing Judaism or the Orthodox Christians of being mind-control experts. Given the popular meaning that adheres to the word, I think the translations are bad, but if one is reading one of those documents, it should be noted that the RCC includes itself in the definition–and that formal documents use meaning #1. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/26 "2002-04-15T00:43:39Z")
> [@](#): > > My oppinion…Mormonism is absolutely cult. I’m curious as to why you would embrace an opinion for which you have already provided evidence that you are mistaken. Joseph Smith is certainly not a “living leader” to whom anyone today pays allegiance. The article you quoted already noted that > [@](#): > > groups that began as cults and developed into organized churches include the . . . Mormons indicating that the LDS has moved beyond cult status. On what basis do you identify the COJCOLDS as a cult in 2002? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/27 "2002-04-15T07:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Face it…according to the World Book definition…it still falls under cult…sorry. _Every_ religion has unusual practices when viewed from the perspective of rationalism. You appear to be saying that it is a cult simply because you wish it to be one. Note, that the World Book has _excluded_ the LDS from their list of current cults. Trying to pick out individual items to scorn while ignoring the thrust of your source (and _its_ own conclusions) would seem to indicate that you are looking for factoids to hold up rather than building a coherent argument. “Oddness” (especially when it is only defined from the outside) is not a trait of cults. The earlier cult of Joseph Smith has passed into history (as has the cult of Jesus of Nazareth or the cult of Moses or the cult of Mohammed or the cult of the Buddha). If you wish to assert that the LDS is a cult, you need to put together a coherent framework for your belief. Otherwise we are liable to dismiss you as one more Mormon-bashing crank. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/28 "2002-04-15T19:53:24Z")
> [@](#): > > By all definitions, good old Joe Smith started a cult. By all definitions, every religion began as a cult. As I noted in my first post, there are several rather distinct definitions of the word. You have clearly been aiming at my third definition (although you seem to be striking my fourth definition most often). The LDS cannot be considered a cult under definitions #2 and #3 at this time. Nothing you have posted supports definition #3 for the LDS. Nothing you have posted indicates that #2 is _currently_ valid. Definition #1 applies to all religions, so pointing at the LDS, calling “Cult!,” and then claiming “Well, they’re _all_ cults” is more than disingenuous, bordering on the dishonest. Unless you are admitting to the dishonesty of claiming #1, that would appear to leave you holding position #4. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/29 "2002-04-16T14:30:12Z")
> [@](#): > > That is seven years of nonorganized church activity. Being a new religious teaching or idea or direction as difined by the world book encyclopedia…does this not qualify as seven years of cult. Note, however, that while this fits the #2 definition that I provided, Joseph Smith has been dead since 1844. Even if you include the “apostolic” period that ended with the death of Brigham Young, that meaning of _cult_ has not been valid since 1877. At this point, it is quite clear that you will simply change your argument (or repeat old errors and hope no one notices) _ad nauseam_. Suffice it to say that you have now firmly established that you are simply someone who hates the LDS and will say anything, however preposterous, to try to prove your point. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/30 "2002-04-20T16:19:53Z")
And the logical failings and rudeness of one individual (or a pair of individuals) from one religious group has exactly _what_ to do with the misapplication of the word “cult” to the group to which they belonged? **Angelslantern** , are you identifying the Mormons as a cult in the year 2002 based on: 1. cult is the technical term for any organized religion? 2. a cult is a religious group following a living or recently deceased leader? 3. a cult is a manipulative organization that dominates all aspects of a member’s life in the guise of providing religious “truths”? 4. a cult is anyone from any religion with which you happen to disagree? We have already established that numbers (2) and (3) simply do not apply to the COJCOLDS at this time, although the LDS–along with Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and, probably, Judaism, could have been defined by (2) for the first few years of their exisitence. So are you embracing definition (1) or definition (4)? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/31 "2002-04-20T23:39:01Z")
> [@](#): > > wants their children to respond to debate. Funny. I have seen no debate. I have seen you make a number of drive-by postings of no substance and I have seen you refuse to answer any substantive question asked of you, but I have seen no debate. When you ask your LDS “friends” what they think, be sure to print _this_ thread, and show them it, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/32 "2002-04-15T20:51:43Z")
Um, what religion starts as an organized church? I mean, this isn’t a “the chicken or the egg” kind of question, with two possible answers. How on earth would you ever have an organized church preceding the religion around which it was organized? Leaving aside the rest of it, the assertion that an organized church comes before its religion is obviously pure nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/33 "2002-04-16T00:36:16Z")
So her name is “Latern”? I’m dead serious when I confess I read her (her?) name as “Angel Slatern” and thought “slattern is a pretty archaic word, and who’d want to be known as a slattern anyway?” I guess your way does make more sense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/34 "2002-04-17T01:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Jodi!!! Yes? You rang? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/35 "2002-04-17T18:52:32Z")
**Jodi** is not LDS either, but rather Methodist. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/36 "2002-04-16T01:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chief Crunch \* > Any mormons care to refute the information found on [this page?](http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm) Basically, that’s the same rehash of objections/misinformation/etc. that’s been used to attack the LDS for a century or more. Many of the responses (note how they don’t include the LDS reponses) can be found at: [ul][_][Jeff Lindsey’s LDS FAQ](http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/index.html) [_][John Colton’s “Answers to Mormon-related Questions”](http://pauline.berkeley.edu/colton/lds/questions.htm)[Fair-lds](http://www.fair-lds.org/links.html)[/ul]We LDS tend to get tired of answering the same questions over and over again. It’s nice that some people have spent the effort to collect some answers in one place. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Chief\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/37 "2002-04-15T17:19:06Z")
Any mormons care to refute the information found on [this page?](http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm) Having never experienced the LDS chruch first hand, I will make no claims as to its veracity; however, if the information is true, it would be no stretch of the imagination to consider the LDS chruch a cult. Also, “Mormons” is a lisited entry on cult expert Steve Hassan’s [Cults and other groups of concern website.](http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/groups.asp) While this doesn’t make the LDS chruch a cult, as the page itself states, it raises the question as to why so many inquiries were made to Hassan regarding the church. While I have no problems with people choosing to believe the Mormon concept that God resides on a planet near the star of Kolob or other such seemingly nonstandard beliefs, one has to wonder why such information is curiously absent from the agressive, door-to-door hard sell of Mormon missionaries and the church’s commercial, media blitz. Such bait and switch tatics, in my opinion, at the very least cast a degree of suspicion on an organization. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Chief\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/38 "2002-04-16T02:02:11Z")
Thanks for the links emarkp. I like to review all sides to an issue and I’ll check your information out. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/39 "2002-04-16T16:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m starting to think that your entire impression of the Mormon church came entirely from the movie _Starship Troopers_… Apropos of nothing, I saw the movie in a theater in Salt Lake. Very nearly the entire theater burst out laughing at the “Fort Joe Smith” scene. I was surprised that so many non-Mormons were at the show. Turns out they _weren’t_–about twenty of them were in the same singles ward. I happened to know one of them and asked him later why he was laughing at Mormons being eaten by Bugs. He said “Hey, we’ll give _anyone_ the first lesson!” ---
**Author:** ![aenea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@aenea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aenea)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/40 "2002-04-15T13:51:01Z")
Am I the only one reading this that actually {shudder} grew up in an “alternative religion” or “cult”? The one my mom unfortunately is still a member of is called Church Universal and Triumphant (Cut) with Elizabeth Prophet as head fruitcake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862.md?page=3)