# Defining a Cult **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862 "2002-04-14T20:29:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/61 "2002-04-15T09:42:02Z")
A definition I heard that I like is a relgion that has less people born into it than converts. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/62 "2002-04-15T08:15:52Z")
Several years ago, during my brief flirtation with cable, I wandered into a segment of the 700 Club program in which Pat Robertson was answering Biblical questions sent in by viewers. One question that was asked was “What is a cult?” Pat explained that all cults were evil, and you could tell them primarily by two characteristics: a) They claimed to have a monopoly on the truth, and b) They required their members to support them. The next question was “What are the major religions in the world, and how are they different?” He went through a list: Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormanism, etc. and explained (to an extent) how they were different from each other. Of course, the one thing they all had in common was that they were all _wrong_ for one reason or another. They didn’t, you see, subscribe totally and exclusively to Pat’s view of the Scriptures (which themselves clearly state you must adhere to, of course). He then ended the segment by flashing the phone number at the bottom of the screen so you could phone in your contribution to his ministry. I’m sitting there saying to myself, “Now _what’s_ the difference here, again?” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/63 "2002-04-15T19:05:16Z")
A religion is the mainstream fundamental belief system **I** subscribe to. A cult is the kooky bizarro clan-ritual that **you** participate in. (Note that I’m an atheist; the abovementioned is just for illustrative purposes) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/64 "2002-04-15T20:44:13Z")
Well, the word “cult” isn’t really used much anymore, because it’s gotten a negative connotation. Traditionally, a cult is a new religious movement, usually looked on with suspicion by the community as a whole. Unfortunately, that definition has been hijacked, and the term “cult” is often used to describe dangerous cults, like the People’s Temple, or the Branch Davidians, or Heaven’s Gate. Because of that, most people who study religion now refer to groups as NRM (New Religious Movements), which they hope is still an untainted term. Of course, by the first definition, the LDS was a cult at formation, but so were the Lutherans…so was Christianity itself. In saying that, I’m not attempting to make a moral judgement on any of those three groups. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/65 "2002-04-17T04:51:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > \*\* > Monty seems to have a temper \*\* I guess, sort of. On the other hand, you did insult his religion. That tends to make people kind of testy. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/66 "2002-04-16T12:37:46Z")
Angelslantern, I’m just curious, but why would an atheist, who thinks that all religions are cults, have such a nut for the LDS in particular? Last time I checked, we atheists didn’t have a doctrine that required we convert the masses. By the way, your arguments keep changing every time you are presented with any new information. Even we non-believers know how a debate works. Oh, I almost forgot to use your argument-steroids that lend so much weight to your opinions, so let me rectify that. There is absolutely no doubt… Face it… No opinnion here… Think what you will… By all definitions… And if those don’t work, then… …grow up. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2002, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/67 "2002-04-19T09:35:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Father of Loki \* > **\I see you’re still quoting your logic rules. Too bad you seem to forget them at times when building your own arguments. Eg. Your “Having a temper != not having a brain.” to Angel. See if you can figure out what logic rules you’re breaking here.** I don’t see any logic rules broken. He said A is not equal to B. Seems fair enough. I understood it to mean that Monty was saying “I may have a temper, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have a brain”, but maybe you get something else out of it. > [@](#): > > **And your next comment to her: “And the next lamest stunt is ad hominem attacks.” Where is this written? Your “Made up logic to beat Angel up with” book? Maybe the next lamest stunt is someone who quotes a bunch of rules, and then doesn’t follow them themselves. Do you know what that type of reasoning is called?** Ad hominem attacks aren’t looked on fondly in GD, so I’m pretty sure the board will back him up on this one. I’m certainly not a dues paying member in the “Monty’s always right” fan club, but I don’t see where he didn’t follow his own rules. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![PosterChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/68 "2002-04-21T02:14:11Z")
I’m still confused what **AL** is trying to say. Didn’t he already say, in his own post: “_A cult is a religiuos group devoted to a living leader, a new teaching, or an unusual practice… Christianity began as a cult within Judaism… In modern times groups that began as cults and developed into organized churches include the Quakers, **Mormons** _” He doesn’t seem to be making rational posts anymore. I’m beginning to think he’s either a troll or a few cards short of a full deck. Either way, he’s not adding anything to this discussion, so maybe we should respond in this thread only to his GD quality posts and leave responses to his Pit-like posts to this Pit. PC ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/69 "2002-04-14T22:03:46Z")
I certainly would not consider LDS to be a cult. I don’t think there’s any strict definition. A cult generally has these characteristics: 1.) Centered around obedience or service to one person or a small group of people. 2.) Claims that the leader is perfect and infallible. 3.) Belief that the outside world consisting of everyone who isn’t in the cult is corrupt, and tries to cut off all communication between cult members and the outside world. 4.) Belief that Armageddon will occurs soon. Belief that this cult will play an important role in Armageddon. However, one could name some cults that don’t fit all four of these definitions. I would say that number 3 is probably the most important. None of the world’s major religions would qualify as cults to me because they don’t try to completly cut of their members from society. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/70 "2002-04-16T01:50:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > \*\*Monty…LDS did not start as an organized church. History is very clear and undisputable…By all definitions, good old Joe Smith started a cult. Think what you will Monty… > Chief Crunch…I hear ya… \*\* Get yer facts straight cupcake, the Church Organized April 6, 1830 in accordance with the laws of the state of New York, in the Whitmer home in Fayette. Fifty six were present with 6 being recorded that day as the organizing members. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/71 "2002-04-16T02:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnM \* > \*\*The Sociology Dept. at the Univeristy of Virginia maintains a [religious movements](http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/) web site that discusses the cult/sect/religion question from a more academic view point. As regarding LDS, the site says: \*\* > [@](#): > > The Church is considered by many to be a cultic movement. However, because of its tremendous growth (it is the fastest growing major denomination in the world today), it is beginning to gain acceptance by more and more people. If the current growth rate continues, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may become the fourth major monotheistic denomination (the other three being Christianity, Judaism and the Islamic faith). Over 11 million in 160 countries. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/72 "2002-04-16T11:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > \*\*Hey cupcake…Joe Smith said that in 1823 he was told that he would receive the golden plates to translate… He then said that he recieved them in 1827. His writings, or translations if you believe this stuff, werent published until 1830. The church was then organized on April 6,1830… > > That is seven years of nonorganized church activity. Being a new religious teaching or idea or direction as difined by the world book encyclopedia…does this not qualify as seven years of cult. > Sorry cupcake…lol \*\* It does not. Joseph did not have “followers” outside his family until about 1827. The membership of the church did not begin congregating and living in the same communities until shortly after the church was officially organized in 1830. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/73 "2002-04-16T14:04:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > \*\*LDS has some very unusual practices…baptizing the dead …etc… > Face it…according to the World Book definition…it still falls under cult…sorry. \*\* It’s already been noted another thread. But this is a false statement. We do not baptize dead. We do baptisms by proxy for those who are dead, if they have a family member or descendant who request it. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/74 "2002-04-16T23:00:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > Cult- as defined by The World Book Encyclopedia > > Cult is a religious group devoted to a living leader, a new teaching, or an unusual practice. Have you not read the thread? The World Book Encyclopedia is not necessary a particularly respected “cite” on this board. Most of us stopped using them after elementary school. > [@](#): > > Is Jesus not considerd as a living leader, No, Christ **died** and was resurrected. A resurrected being is not the same as a mortal being. We do however consider him the head of the Church. > [@](#): > > were not Joe Smiths teachings new to the world, No, we believe his teachings are a restoration of the gospel as Christ taught it. > [@](#): > > are some of the LDS practices not unusual in that they are not practiced by any one else but LDS Oh look you got one right! Just as every other religion has doctrines, teachings and practices that distinguish them from the one down the street, across the country, or four countries over. Or are you claiming there are a set of religions that all practice the same beliefs? I don’t think so. I think you just can’t deal with “different”, sounds like a pretty typical case of ignorant intolerance or bigotry to me. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/75 "2002-04-17T02:36:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*In case you hadn’t noticed, I’m not LDS. **tomndebb** is not LDS. **Spoofe** is not LDS. > > :rolleyes: \*\* **vanilla** is not LDS **chief crunch** is not LDS **rjung** is not LDS **Nenya\_Elizabeth** is not LDS **DMC** is not LDS several others I don’t know about. By my count there are four LDS posters (maybe five) to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/76 "2002-04-17T02:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > \*\*So I take it that LDS is not cult??? \*\* By jove, I think she’s got it! ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/77 "2002-04-21T19:15:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelslantern \* > \*\*If every one has not seen the Monty slim on the BBQ pit… > > The high priest stopped in early this morning…I know him well. > > We yap religion all the time, he knows my views and I know his. > > I help him with his cattel, he is a rancher and teacher. > > He said that Monty is not LDS or at least not a practicing one…Montique would not last in his branch. > > caught in the act Mr. fraud…JOKES ON YOU > > ya gotta love it… \*\* \*\*A[/]b You don’t have a flippin clue what you are talking about. A practicing high priest would not have been out ranching or visiting on a sunday morning. He’d have been in church. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/78 "2002-04-16T10:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > A cult generally has these characteristics: > > 1.) Centered around obedience or service to one person or a small group of people. > > 2.) Claims that the leader is perfect and infallible. > > 3.) Belief that the outside world consisting of everyone who isn’t in the cult is corrupt, and tries to cut off all communication between cult members and the outside world. > > 4.) Belief that Armageddon will occurs soon. Belief that this cult will play an important role in Armageddon. > > However, one could name some cults that don’t fit all four of these definitions. I would say that number 3 is probably the most important. None of the world’s major religions would qualify as cults to me because they don’t try to completly cut of their members from society. Some additions/modifications/etc: 1. Make that _absolute_ obedience. 2. It seems that a cult (now usually denotes a doomsday cult) would also claim the leader to have some kind of extraordinary origin, say, the brother of Jesus or the biggest Buddha, and therefore has extraordinary or even supernatural powers. 3. Sometimes a cult requires followers to live in large groups that are cut off from the outside world. 4. Not necessary Armageddon _per se_ but some kind of doomsday scenerio. 5. Extorts money from members ---
**Author:** ![Nenya\_Elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@Nenya\_Elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nenya_Elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/79 "2002-04-15T21:42:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aenea \* > \*\*Am I the only one reading this that actually {shudder} grew up in an “alternative religion” or “cult”? > > The one my mom unfortunately is still a member of is called Church Universal and Triumphant (Cut) with Elizabeth Prophet as head fruitcake. \*\* No, **aenea** , you aren’t the only one. The group my family was in wanted to have no name (so as to be different from all the other churches whom God had obviously passed by) but we refered to ourselves as The Move. (Short for “the end-time movement of God”–yeah, we were pretty apocalyptic.) Begun by a fellow named Sam Fife, now headed by a man named Buddy (Carroll) Cobb, who my parents say believes almost the exact opposite of many of the initial founder’s concepts–yet many folks still follow him. My mom’s parents and two of her brothers are still in the group; as are many acquaintances including two of my superiors at work. Our group wasn’t as extreme as some, but displayed most of the abusive behaviours listed in the first few posts here and in Cecil’s column. If you know someone who claims to have left a cult, please be very gentle with them. Some of the freedoms you take for granted–to choose your own carreer, home, or clothing style, not to mention belief system–may be very difficult for them to reclaim. Cults suck!!! ☹ If you suspect your group may be a cult, as my dad’s friend says, “Read Animal Farm. If you see your leaders in the pigs, take a long, hard look at your group.” ---
**Author:** ![Jabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@Jabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jabba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862/80 "2002-04-15T00:18:58Z")
I have at times been desribed as “an utter cult”. Sadly, my hearing is not what it used to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-a-cult/104862.md?page=5)