# Defining Irony **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842 "2013-03-13T19:13:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/21 "2013-03-14T05:24:05Z")
I have to admit, it bugs me when “ironically” is used in place of “coincidentally”. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/22 "2013-03-14T12:31:53Z")
To make it more confusing, “irony” has a very precise definition in literature, but it has a very squishy, inexact usage in the common parlance. From a definition of literary terms: Irony: the discrepancy between what is said and what is meant, what is said and what is done, what is expected or intended and what happens, what is meant or said and what others understand. Sometimes irony is classified into types: in **situational irony** , expectations aroused by a situation are reversed; in **cosmic irony** or **the irony of fate** , misfortune is the result of fate, chance, or God; in **dramatic irony** , the audience knows more than the characters in the play, so that words and action have additional meaning for the audience; **Socractic irony** is named after Socrates’ teaching method, whereby he assumes ignorance and openness to opposing points of view which turn out to be (he shows them to be) foolish. Irony is often confused with sarcasm and satire: \*Sarcasm \*is one kind of irony; it is praise which is really an insult; sarcasm generally invovles malice, the desire to put someone down, e.g., “This is my brilliant son, who failed out of college.” \*Satire \*is the exposure of the vices or follies of an indiviudal, a group, an institution, an idea, a society, etc., usually with a view to correcting it. Satirists frequently use irony. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/23 "2013-03-14T12:34:58Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Ironically, the worst thing Alanis Morrisette did to the definition of irony wasn’t the stretched beyond all recognition use of the term in her song, but the resulting fad to declare every use of the word as ‘not ironic’. Which actually \*is \*ironic. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/24 "2013-03-14T14:23:58Z")
As is usual for me on a Wednesday, yesterday I left work a little early and got on a bus. I was looking forward to a good meal at one of my favorite places. But the bus was really crowded, and traffic was heavy, so I ended up arriving about 25 minutes late. There was no way I could hit an ATM, eat dinner, get on my next bus (which takes a minimum of 45 minutes), and get to my class on time. I ended up grabbing something fast and cheap to eat, rushed through it, and (literally) ran for my bus. No doubt about it, I was going to be late for class. But some strange miracle, traffic had thinned out to almost nothing. My 45 minute ride took only 15 minutes, leaving me with a half hour to kill in complete boredom. Is that ironic? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/25 "2013-03-14T17:14:02Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > As is usual for me on a Wednesday, yesterday I left work a little early and got on a bus. I was looking forward to a good meal at one of my favorite places. But the bus was really crowded, and traffic was heavy, so I ended up arriving about 25 minutes late. > > There was no way I could hit an ATM, eat dinner, get on my next bus (which takes a minimum of 45 minutes), and get to my class on time. > > I ended up grabbing something fast and cheap to eat, rushed through it, and (literally) ran for my bus. No doubt about it, I was going to be late for class. > > But some strange miracle, traffic had thinned out to almost nothing. My 45 minute ride took only 15 minutes, leaving me with a half hour to kill in complete boredom. > > Is that ironic? No, that is just the universe fucking with you. It is the universe, that is what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/26 "2013-03-14T17:41:02Z")
I find myself disagreeing with the dictionary definitions. In my personal book, sarcasm is not necessary irony. Sarcasm is counter-factual, but not necessarily demeaning, hostile, insulting. In other words, I agree with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/27 "2013-03-14T21:06:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I find myself disagreeing with the dictionary definitions. In my personal book, sarcasm is not necessary irony. Sarcasm is counter-factual, but not necessarily demeaning, hostile, insulting. In other words, I agree with the OP. I’m not quite following you, here: irony isn’t necessarily hostile, demeaning, or insulting. So if sarcasm is also sometimes none of those things, how does that show that sarcasm isn’t always a subset of irony? Could you give an example of sarcasm that you feel is non-ironic? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/28 "2013-03-14T21:19:35Z")
Just like the OP says. “Lovely day for a stroll” is sarcastic, but not ironic. At least the way I would use the terms. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/29 "2013-03-14T21:32:00Z")
Well, how do you define the term? What definition of irony do you use that would exclude that sentence? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/30 "2013-03-14T21:56:19Z")
Would hypocrisy be considered ironic? Like Rep. Mark Foley in charge of protecting children while at the same time trying to find children to do naughty things with? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/31 "2013-03-14T22:02:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, how do you define the term? What definition of irony do you use that would exclude that sentence? I don’t include plain sarcasm within “verbal irony.” Perhaps my own definition of irony excludes so-called “verbal irony” altogether. There must be more to the situation than a simple counter-factual statement in order for there to be irony. There must be an underlying situational irony or something. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/32 "2013-03-14T22:29:53Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > My French girlfriend is trying to understand irony. She keeps reading examples that I maintain are NOT ironic. So she found this site… > > [http://www.sarcasmsociety.com/irony.html](http://www.sarcasmsociety.com/irony.html) > > I maintain these definitions are as bad as all the others. The first example of verbal irony is awful. > > “Verbal irony is the use of words to convey something other than, and especially the opposite of the literal meaning of the words, to emphasize, aggrandize, or make light or a circumstance or subject. A common example of this use of verbal irony is the scenario of a man staring out a window looking at a miserably muddy rainy day and remarking, “lovely day for a stroll.” This remark is ironic because it expresses the opposite of the circumstances.” > > Sorry but that’s just sarcasm. > > **Am I wrong here? I’m beginning to suspect that in the US, the definition of irony is completely different to that in the UK.** Remember the Alanis Morrisette song “Ironic”? Not a SINGLE one other examples of irony in the song are ironic in my opinion. > > Can someone give me a really good definition and examples of irony to give to my girlfriend? Is irony defined differently in the US or do Americans just not get it? > > I’ve put this in Great Debates as I think there should be some sort of answer, if not strictly factual, to this rather than opinion. Although opinions welcome. Mods, feel free to move if necessary. Here’s your answer, right in your OP. British English is very different from American English. Surprised you’re unaware of this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/33 "2013-03-18T14:16:41Z")
George Carlin defined “irony” as “something having the opposite effect of what was intended.” Like if a guy in an improvised country dies from being hit with a parachuted aid package. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/34 "2013-03-18T22:21:12Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > George Carlin defined “irony” as “something having the opposite effect of what was intended.” Like if a guy in an improvised country dies from being hit with a parachuted aid package. I eat celery because I’m hungry and need calories, so because it takes more calories to eat celery than it provides\*, that’s ironic is it? Surely nonsense. - if that isn’t true than I understand if you want to point it out but hopefully I’ve got my point across. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/35 "2013-03-19T01:01:06Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > “Verbal irony is the use of words to convey something other than, and especially the opposite of the literal meaning of the words, to emphasize, aggrandize, or make light or a circumstance or subject. A common example of this use of verbal irony is the scenario of a man staring out a window looking at a miserably muddy rainy day and remarking, “lovely day for a stroll.” This remark is ironic because it expresses the opposite of the circumstances.” > > Sorry but that’s just sarcasm. No, it’s not. It’s irony. \*\*Sarcasm, by definition, is insulting. \*\* You are being sarcastic when you are trying to hurt someone’s feelings, insult them, or express contempt for them. In the cited example case the speaker isn’t insulting anyone. It’s not sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![yawuntz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a5b964/32.png) [@yawuntz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yawuntz)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/36 "2013-03-19T02:25:04Z")
> [@Lord\_Mondegreen](#): > > There was **an Irish comedian** (can’t remember who) who tried to turn a couple of those into proper irony. > > “Rain on your wedding day”: Imagine you are a meteorologist and you specifically chose a particular day for your wedding because you worked out it would almost certainly be good weather. Then the rain might be seen as ironic. > > “A traffic jam when you’re already late”: You’re a town planner on your way to give a speech about how the policies you’ve implemented have fixed the town’s traffic problems. This guy… Decries the lack of irony, seems to think she’s just a “whingin’ bint”: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/nT1TVSTkAXg/hqdefault.jpg "Ed Byrne slates Alanis Morissette") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg) ---
**Author:** ![yawuntz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a5b964/32.png) [@yawuntz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yawuntz)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/37 "2013-03-19T02:27:35Z")
double post. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/38 "2013-03-19T05:19:18Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Ok, here’s my shot at it: > > Irony: O. Henry’s “[Gift of the Magi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_the_Magi).” > > Sarcasm: “I like your new [hideous] dress; it complements your face so well.” I’d agree that The Gift of the Magi is a perfect example of irony. Irony is a broader category than sarcasm, as it need not be based on cruelty, but it does involve coming up short due to a flaw. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/39 "2013-03-23T04:15:32Z")
> **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842/40 "2013-03-23T04:26:13Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The standard English definitions can be found here: [IRONY Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony) I had no idea how many different ways that word is used. We need more words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-irony/652842.md?page=3)