# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/181 "2023-03-17T17:20:27Z")
He didn’t say “the extreme left are as bad as the extreme right” though, did he? No, he said, “The woke are as bad as the extreme right.” Which is pretty fucking different, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/182 "2023-03-17T17:23:54Z")
The link didn’t work, but I think you are going to have a hard time equating left and right wing motivated violence in America today. The latter is orders of magnitude greater in scale, and that’s why US intelligence agencies have specifically identified white nationalist and white supremacy based violence as the current largest terrorism threat. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/183 "2023-03-17T17:27:40Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > The problem I see with every minority groups, no matter how fringe, pushing to have their every demands catered to, aside from the obvious loss in social cohesion is that it is impossible to please all, as their worldviews and goals are often conflicting with each other. See, this is the problem. No one\* is pushing to have their every demand catered to. Trans people aren’t really demanding ANYTHING from you, other than basic dignity. Seriously - what demand to trans people make that places any burden on you at all, above and beyond the basic burdens of human decency that you should offer anyone? \*Well, there is ONE exception: white supremacist christian nationalists who are butthurt about us NO LONGER catering to THEIR every demand, as we have for far too long. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/184 "2023-03-17T17:28:23Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The link didn’t work… It’s an FBI report on the arrest of a number or protesters who destroyed construction equipment being used to build a police training facility. Notably, the far left terrorists extremists here didn’t actually kill a single person, so even this example still isn’t really like-to-like. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/185 "2023-03-17T17:37:52Z")
[Burger King sued for false advertising (their nominally vegan food “cross-contaminated” by animal products).](https://vegconomist.com/society/charity-campaigns/peta-urges-vegans-not-to-demand-separate-equipment/) Some vegans would like restaurants to use separate equipment to cook their food. Some Muslims hold a similar argument, for different reasons. How are businesses supposed to deal with this ? Logistics aside, what about the criminal overconsumption that this would lead to in a time when saving the planet is arguably the absolute priority ? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/186 "2023-03-17T17:39:36Z")
As a businessman, I would look upon this as an opportunity to which I would need to forecast out to see if it is profitable. How do other businesses do stuff like this? Anyway, given that businesses are commonly held as the “drivers of innovation” , I don’t think that this is necessarily a problem for these stalwart practitioners of American capitalism ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/187 "2023-03-17T17:41:59Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Do you have the remotest idea of the life I’ve lived ? How can we? We can only react to what you write on this board, where you push a lot of RW talking points and buzzwords, like “Woke are equivalent to the extreme far right,” and “Islamist.” Or this: > [@Moonrise](#): > > The problem I see with every minority groups, no matter how fringe, pushing to have their every demands catered to, aside from the obvious loss in social cohesion is that it is impossible to please all, as their worldviews and goals are often conflicting with each other. …which is a bog-standard right wing strawman of leftist values. I’m against discrimination against gay people, and I’m against discrimination against Muslims, and there’s zero tension between these positions, because they both proceed from the idea that, so long as they aren’t hurting anyone, people should be able to live their lives how they want. I don’t support “catering to every demand,” from a minority group. But I also don’t see minority groups pushing to have their demands met as a “problem.” I don’t have an issue with people pushing to shape society in the way they see best, even if I disagree (often vehemently) with what they think “best” means. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/188 "2023-03-17T17:42:50Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Some vegans would like restaurants to use separate equipment to cook their food. Some Muslims hold a similar argument, for different reasons. How are businesses supposed to deal with this ? So do some Jews. You cannot sell food titled “Kosher” or “Halal” if it touched pork, for example. Should there be a sufficient market for it, perhaps vegans can demand similar labeling. Note that some Jews and Muslims are happy to get the chicken at a non-kosher/halal restaurant, while others will eat only at places certified by their religious authority. Given similar labeling, I imagine Vegans would fall into similar categories. What is wrong with this, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/189 "2023-03-17T17:43:09Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Some vegans would like restaurants to use separate equipment to cook their food. Some Muslims hold a similar argument, for different reasons. How are businesses supposed to deal with this ? Simple, don’t false advertise. If you don’t have vegan offerings, don’t claim that you do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/190 "2023-03-17T17:43:52Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Some vegans would like restaurants to use separate equipment to cook their food. Some Muslims hold a similar argument, for different reasons. How are businesses supposed to deal with this ? Don’t claim you’re serving vegan food when you aren’t? Don’t claim you’re serving halal food when you aren’t? I don’t see how that’s hard. Businesses shouldn’t make false advertising claims. Is that “woke” now? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/191 "2023-03-17T17:47:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Notably, the far left terrorists extremists here didn’t actually kill a single person, so even this example still isn’t really like-to-like. I think it’s also important to note that there are not dozens of prominent Democratic officials supporting far-left terrorists, unlike the dozens of prominent Republican officials (including the most recent Republican president) who openly support the January 6 insurrectionists. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/192 "2023-03-17T17:52:52Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Left: “I’d like to propose these changes to the status quo because that would be very woke.” Did anybody on the left ever use the term in that fashion? AIUI, it applies to individuals; not to specific changes. And I doubt that anybody would say “I’d like to propose these changes because I am very woke.” Possibly “If you were more woke you would support these changes, here’s some information I’d like you to look at and consider”? Of course, then the rest of that imagined conversation isn’t going to go where you’re imagining it as going. Not that it would anyway. Is anybody who seriously used the term going to respond to “what does woke mean?” with “Dudn’t matter”? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Of course, it’s also useful if the participants respect the rules as well. I’ve had plenty of times when we’ve moved on to another item, and someone just isn’t done making whatever point they think they need to make. “We can come back to that another time. If we’re going to ever get home tonight/get time to have lunch, let’s RETURN TO THE MATTER CURRENTLY AT HAND.” – I started chairing a meeting some years ago that had generally run for four or five hours. I got us out of there, routinely, in about an hour and a half. And that was allowing for a limited amount of brief digression, so that people could feel they’d had their say. – after the meeting was over, some people would often hang out and talk. But other business had gotten done, and those of us who wanted to could go home. Again, it’s going to depend on the meeting, and on your position in it. But I got a lot of thanks. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The point is that you do need to have some sort of rules, or you don’t have a meeting, you just have a gathering of people. That’s what we pretty much had, to start with. I wasn’t trying to enforce Roberts; I was just writing up an agenda in advance, and then persistently coming back to it. ‘Member reports and additional business are at the end of the meeting, see the agenda? We’re dealing with the advertising budget, right now.’ > [@Moonrise](#): > > I picked an Islamist preacher because Islam is still a minority religion in the West. So are trans people. The problem I see with every minority groups, no matter how fringe, pushing to have their every demands catered to, aside from the obvious loss in social cohesion is that it is impossible to please all, as their worldviews and goals are often conflicting with each other. It is always impossible to please everybody perfectly. That’s no reason why some people should be ignored entirely. And both objections to Islam and objections to the existence of trans people – not to “having their every demands catered to”, to their very existence – are, in the USA, coming primarily from some (not all) types of Christians. Either both those people, and those of other religions or none, who don’t want others to be allowed to live in their own fashion – the false either-or is found in all groups of people – will have to learn to do so anyway; or people in the “fringe groups” will be destroyed entirely (a category in which I include “forced to live in hiding”, which I note often causes suicides). After which, the next largest remaining group becomes the “fringe group”. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s an FBI report on the arrest of a number or protesters who destroyed construction equipment being used to build a police training facility. > > Notably, the far left terrorists extremists here didn’t actually kill a single person, so even this example still isn’t really like-to-like. Also, even the right-wing use of the word “woke” appears to apply to speech. And even that use doesn’t seem to apply to speech inciting violence; let alone to actual violence. > [@Moonrise](#): > > [Burger King sued for false advertising (their nominally vegan food “cross-contaminated” by animal products).](https://vegconomist.com/society/charity-campaigns/peta-urges-vegans-not-to-demand-separate-equipment/) > > Some vegans would like restaurants to use separate equipment to cook their food. Some Muslims hold a similar argument, for different reasons. How are businesses supposed to deal with this ? By honestly advertising their food, so people can decide whether to eat it or not. They’re not being sued for selling hamburgers. They’re being sued for false advertising. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/193 "2023-03-17T17:56:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > …which is a bog-standard right wing strawman of leftist values. I’m against discrimination against gay people, and I’m against discrimination against Muslims, and there’s zero tension between these positions, because they both proceed from the idea that, so long as they aren’t hurting anyone, people should be able to live their lives how they want. I don’t support “catering to every demand,” from a minority group. But I also don’t see minority groups pushing to have their demands met as a “problem.” I don’t have an issue with people pushing to shape society in the way they see best, even if I disagree (often vehemently) with what they think “best” means. And I agree with this. I’m concerned that not all worldviews can coexist. And how we deal with that. Whose demands should we prioritize when absolutely conflicting positions appear ? Look. The only thing I take away from this thread is the constructive, nuanced and mildly expressed criticism of my position by @HMS_Irruncible . What the rest of you have done is just confirming that any criticism of some policies of the left is met with a with-us-or-against pile-on. . ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/194 "2023-03-17T17:58:09Z")
Good thing I find right-wing ideas repellent. With friends like these… (i.e. you guys) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/195 "2023-03-17T18:00:47Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > criticism of some policies of the left I missed where you specifically criticized policies of the left, maybe you could point them out? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/196 "2023-03-17T18:01:20Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > The only thing I take away from this thread is the constructive, nuanced and mildly expressed criticism of my position by @HMS_Irruncible . What the rest of you have done is just confirming that any criticism of some policies of the left is met with a with-us-or-against pile-on. . If that’s how you choose to misrepresent what was said, there’s nothing anyone can do to stop you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/197 "2023-03-17T18:01:24Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > It so happens that I converted to Islam over 20 years ago. I lived day in day out with Muslims for 18 years and that includes my ex-wife, our daughters, her family and absolutely all of her friends. I have spent several extended stays in Muslim-majority countries, living alongside the locals. I spent over 2 years taking religious classes and used to\* be able to recite about 25 suras by heart. I prayed 5 times a day and fastened on Ramadan. I’m willing to bet I know more about Islam from first-hand experience than 90% of you guys here. > > \*I’ve since left the faith. You are a long-time liberal _and_ you were a hard line devotee of Islam for over 18 years, converting (to what, btw?) just 2 years ago? Please clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/198 "2023-03-17T18:03:04Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > And I agree with this. I’m concerned that not all worldviews can coexist. And how we deal with that. Whose demands should we prioritize when absolutely conflicting positions appear ? We prioritize the demands that are for relief from unfair or oppressive conditions, and ignore the ones that are for imposing more unfair or oppressive conditions. There’s really very few instances where it’s hard to figure out which is which. > [@Moonrise](#): > > What the rest of you have done is just confirming that any criticism of some policies of the left is met with a with-us-or-against pile-on. . You’ve said some stuff in here that a lot of people disagree with, so a lot of people responded to you. What are we supposed to do? Take a number to see who gets to respond to you? > [@Moonrise](#): > > With friends like these… (i.e. you guys) Friends can disagree with each other. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/199 "2023-03-17T18:06:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s really very few instances where it’s hard to figure out which is which. It depends on your perspective. If you have chosen to take the position that the copyright owners of James and the Giant Peach changing some words and language in their property to be an example of oppression, then it suddenly becomes quite confusing. And anything anyone says to try to alleviate your confusion will just confirm your prior beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/200 "2023-03-17T18:10:46Z")
This video came out a couple hours ago and accurately explains this entire thread in like 4 minutes: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/K_Ot8UUNpW8/maxresdefault.jpg "Conservatives Are Bad at Defining Wokeness") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Ot8UUNpW8) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=11)