# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/201 "2023-03-17T18:38:36Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > The only thing I take away from this thread is the constructive, nuanced and mildly expressed criticism of my position by Naw, you also completely dropped the “copyright owners should not change books” line when it was shown that this is a function of American copyright law, as well as when I argued that I (and 2 billion other people) worship from a book to which we have little idea of how it has been revised to meet the ‘woke’ demands of the Council of Nicea (and innumerable others), so I am assuming you took something away there as well. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/202 "2023-03-17T18:56:52Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > The problem I see with every minority groups, no matter how fringe, pushing to have their every demands catered to, aside from the obvious loss in social cohesion is that it is impossible to please all, as their worldviews and goals are often conflicting with each other. This is confusing. I live in Texas, a state which is more Hispanic than Anglo… yet it’s Anglo culture and people which are having their demands catered to, who don’t care about social cohesion, who still runs the state, etc. People like me are imposing our minority views upon hispanics. We’re imposing our view of history upon people who have a differing view of history. We teach them to worship the instruments which led to their own historical destruction as a group in charge of their own destinies, giving them European names and Gods, European societies, mores, values, etc. Do you have a problem with this? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/203 "2023-03-17T19:06:13Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Look. The only thing I take away from this thread is the constructive, nuanced and mildly expressed criticism of my position by @HMS_Irruncible . What the rest of you have done is just confirming that any criticism of some policies of the left is met with a with-us-or-against pile-on. . Say what now? Is that really an accurate summation of what (for example) I’ve done? If you can’t take anything away from what anyone else said, that’s kind of sad, because there have been some really perceptive and eloquent posts addressed to you. Moving on… > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not saying not to point out flaws as you see them, just be aware that they will be magnified and distorted to act as a typical example of systemic behavior. > > Like I said, it makes more sense to me to chalk it up to being a badly run meeting than to blame it on the “woke” subject matter in it. Politically speaking, it also gives less ammo to the far right to describe it in those terms. Any time we let fear of how we’ll be distorted shape us, we’re letting our opponents shape us. I think that’s terribly dangerous and shuts down honest conversation. I don’t worry that the right will take what I say and distort it, because **whatever I say** , I know they’re going to do that. The lying assholes at Fox and their lackeys don’t get to curtail my speech just by threatening to lie about it. That said, I don’t think you can chalk it up just to a “badly run meeting.” There’s a specific thread that runs through leftist circles sometimes that can be super navel-gazing and virtue-signaling, and it gets in the way of the important work. I’ve seen it plenty of times over the last 30+ years that I’ve been involved in leftist activism, and I’ve separated from groups when that thread takes over. After that meeting, I talked with another member of the committee and expressed my concerns, and I am cautiously optimistic that the next meeting will be better; but if it’s not, I’ll separate from this committee and leave it to its own internal focus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/204 "2023-03-17T19:19:04Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > I’d say, by “white, Christian, straight male Americans,” for the most part. Hey, pretty good, you have achieved racism, bigotry and oikophobia all in one line. You seem to be saying that _Injustice to various marginalized or minority members of society_ only occurs in American, which is so totally wrong it boggles the imagination. And that other races and other religions can’t also achieve _Injustice to various marginalized or minority members of society_, which is just as wrong. If indeed your definition of “woke” was correct, it would be a bad think, as it would be based upon racism and bigotry. > [@Spoons](#): > > They’re talking about the tax dollars that they worked hard to earn, going to those who didn’t work and who paid few to no taxes. Or their tax dollars coming back later to help them or their family. Do any of those people refuse social security, Unemployment, etc? Note that the more Red a state is, the more dollars it sucks from Uncle Sam- most Red states have a negative share on Fdereral taxes, which the Blue states support them… people in Red states love government dollars, bailouts and handouts… _but only if they go to them._ > [@Pleonast](#): > > The people who are anti-woke are filled with hate, and having abandoned God, hate even themselves. Thus their desire to destroy our country and everything else. This is good. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are a long-time liberal _and_ you were a hard line devotee of Islam for over 18 years, converting (to what, btw?) just 2 years ago? > Please clarify. Why are you asking? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/205 "2023-03-17T19:27:36Z")
Because it seems slightly contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/206 "2023-03-17T19:34:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hey, pretty good, you have achieved racism, bigotry and oikophobia all in one line. Has he? Are you suggesting that the majority of systemic racism in the US was _not_ being inflicted by White people on non-White people? Do you think the majority of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation has not come, historically, from straight people to queer people? Has there been significant systemic oppression of Christians by non-Christians in US history? > [@DrDeth](#): > > You seem to be saying that _Injustice to various marginalized or minority members of society_ only occurs in American, which is so totally wrong it boggles the imagination. No, he’s just talking specifically about injustice that occurs in the US. Not every conversation has to have an international context. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/207 "2023-03-17T20:11:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This video came out a couple hours ago and accurately explains this entire thread in like 4 minutes: And if you like that video from Little Joel, you should see his main channel, Big Joel. Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/208 "2023-03-17T20:16:20Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > I’m concerned that not all worldviews can coexist. And how we deal with that. Whose demands should we prioritize when absolutely conflicting positions appear ? The way in which absolutely conflicting positions appear is when at least one party insists that everyone must live in their particular fashion and follow their particular rules. That is the demand that we shouldn’t, and can’t, prioritize. Can’t, because as you say, there are always people who don’t want to live with anybody else – and they don’t all agree with each other. So when you see people saying that members of “fringe” groups shouldn’t exist, or should exist only as long as they live just the way the either-or group is insisting on – you have to side with the “fringe” groups. Not about any demands that members of other groups shouldn’t exist, if any such are actually being made by the “fringe” groups; but yes, about demands to acknowledge the existence of the “fringe” groups, and injustices that were done or are being done to them by those who either don’t want them to exist, or want them subjugated. Specific terminology, behavior, and ways to reach relative justice can always be debated. But they can’t be debated if nobody’s supposed to mention them! That’s an attempt to make the “fringe” group disappear. – I’m putting “fringe” in quotes because while sometimes the group some want to disappear, or to subsume themselve in the dominant group and live only on its sufferance and according to its rules, is indeed tiny: sometimes it’s quite large, or even the majority. > [@Moonrise](#): > > What the rest of you have done is just confirming that any criticism of some policies of the left is met with a with-us-or-against pile-on. . That is what you’re reading in this thread? Seriously? That’s a comprehension fail that I don’t even know where to start with. Are you reading anything that I’ve said, or that most others in this thread have said? Or are you seeing only ‘they’re disagreeing with me! They must be Wrong!’? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/209 "2023-03-17T20:21:21Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > And if you like that video from Little Joel, you should see his main channel, Big Joel. I am familiar! It is indeed a good channel ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/210 "2023-03-17T20:21:43Z")
Worse, we’re “wrongke” ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/211 "2023-03-17T20:36:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@slicedalone](#): > > > > I’d say, by “white, Christian, straight male Americans,” for the most part. > > Hey, pretty good, you have achieved racism, bigotry and oikophobia all in one line. > > You seem to be saying that _Injustice to various marginalized or minority members of society_ only occurs in American, which is so totally wrong it boggles the imagination omg, you poor victimized white straight male Christian baby. I am so sorry I ever picked on you, and I am soooo sorry I ever implied that discrimination was exclusively an American issue. It is not–there has been all sorts of bad behavior over the past 30,000 years, much of it before the United States was ever settled. But “wokeness” has been overwhelmingly attacked and defended in the U.S. over the past few months, so I hope you can forgive me for implying clumsily otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/212 "2023-03-17T20:55:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because it seems slightly contradictory. Really? I worked with a union organizer for years who was (as far as I can tell, we didn’t talk religion much) a very devout Muslim. She was also super-lefty. I see no contradiction at all. Unless by “hard line devotee” you mean something other than “very devout”–in which case I don’t think it’s a fair summary of what @Moonrise described as his(?) experience. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/213 "2023-03-17T21:09:38Z")
I want to preface by saying that you are one of my favorite posters, and I have a ton of respect for you and your positions. I look forward to reading your posts, and they contribute significantly to the value of this board. I say this because I don’t want you to think that I am going for any sort of gotcha or trying to catch you out in any way. However, I _do_ disagree. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Any time we let fear of how we’ll be distorted shape us, we’re letting our opponents shape us. I think that’s terribly dangerous and shuts down honest conversation. I don’t worry that the right will take what I say and distort it, because **whatever I say** , I know they’re going to do that. The lying assholes at Fox and their lackeys don’t get to curtail my speech just by threatening to lie about it. But in this case you offered up an example of “woke gone wild”. You implied that it was all about the _content_ of the meeting, not how the meeting was run. They don’t need to lie or take anything out of context, you have provided exactly what they are looking for. I am not looking to shut down honest conversation, and I don’t see it as dangerous at all to make sure that we are not taking the same rhetorical shortcuts that lead them to make the assertions that they do. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That said, I don’t think you can chalk it up just to a “badly run meeting.” There’s a specific thread that runs through leftist circles sometimes that can be super navel-gazing and virtue-signaling, and it gets in the way of the important work. I’ve seen it plenty of times over the last 30+ years that I’ve been involved in leftist activism, and I’ve separated from groups when that thread takes over. I think that there are a lot of people with good if naive ideas who are ill equipped to express them, and even less to implement them. When they try to articulate what it is that they are trying to do, they need guidance and help to be effective, or maybe a private conversation that what they are doing is _not_ effective. But that’s nothing to do with “woke” or liberal ideology, it’s just how humans are. The fact that they see injustices that they don’t see being addressed increases their motivation to try to express themselves, but it doesn’t actually help them to do so. So, they end up aimlessly rambling about inconsequentials and waste everyone’s time, as you described in the meeting. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > After that meeting, I talked with another member of the committee and expressed my concerns, and I am cautiously optimistic that the next meeting will be better; That is absolutely an appropriate place to lodge such a complaint. It really does sound like whoever was running this meeting was not focused, organized, or maybe had no idea what they were doing. Whether that person needs to be educated or replaced as meeting leader, I don’t know, but what shouldn’t happen is that they are discouraged from expressing _themselves_ for fear of how their opponents will distort it. _I_ think that it is dangerous and shuts down honest conversation to imply that it was the content of their message that was the problem, rather than the way that they expressed it. I am not saying that it’s your responsibility to teach people how to express themselves, nor even that you should subject yourself to interminable meetings run by people who don’t know how to run meetings. I _am_ however, saying that holding up people like that as examples of “woke” gone wrong is not fair to them, does our side no favors, and provides ready ammo for the other side to use against us. Anyway, just a thought, and I will reiterate that, even though I disagree with you on this, I still have the utmost respect for you as a poster, as a teacher, and as an activist. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/214 "2023-03-17T21:16:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Unless by “hard line devotee” you mean something other than “very devout”–in which case I don’t think it’s a fair summary of what @Moonrise described as his(?) experience. Given @Moonrise 's comments about Islam, I’d say that it is fair to say that is the position that he is coming from. In case you missed it: > [@Moonrise](#): > > calls for special treatment for increasingly fringe views, which happen be often at odds with each other (ever seen an Islamist preacher supporting trans rights ?). At the very least, we can say that in _his_ experience, _he’s_ never seen an Islamist preacher supporting trans rights. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/215 "2023-03-17T21:22:28Z")
Exactly. Their depiction of Islam doesn’t exactly line up with their claim of being a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/216 "2023-03-17T22:49:09Z")
Moderating: > [@slicedalone](#): > > omg, you poor victimized white straight male Christian baby. Stop with the personal attacks. You can make your points without attacking a poster. Warning next time. Close call for this time. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/217 "2023-03-18T00:08:50Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > This particular [imbecile](https://twitter.com/i/status/1635749284355211264) has great trouble getting her tongue to operate properly in coordination with her brain, but I can’t really tell why “woke” is any trouble to define. Author Bethany Mandel who wrote an entire book about the horrors of woke but could not define it (the imbecile in the OP) writes an article about her viral moment. > Over my career as a loud and proud “breeder”, I have often felt attacked by the left, and braced myself to be ambushed on air about my own life choices as a mother of six children… throughout the entire interview I felt a panic attack growing…the panic attack had arrived and I was rendered speechless. Doubtless now suffering from PTSD, she still fails to define “woke” in her long article, but there are heartwarming anecdotes of how her homeschooled kids (who really need a definition for “woke”, mom said it will be in the test) admire her resilience in the face of persecution. > **["I was asked to define woke. My humiliation went viral"](https://www.newsweek.com/define-woke-bethany-mandel-conservative-book-1788538)** > > It was a fair question; after all, it's the centerpiece of my book's premise. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/218 "2023-03-18T03:12:03Z")
The article is a self-pitying piece of drivel. One wonders why the hell _Newsweek_ ever published it, but then, _Newsweek_ itself has been something of a rag since its takeover by IBT Media ten years ago. Speaking of reputation, I was curious what sordid outfit would lower itself to publish this imbecile’s book. Well, it’s something called DW Books, which stands for DailyWire Books (not to be confused with German broadcaster DW). And here are a few of the other gems they’ve also published: - _When Race Trumps Merit_ - _Speechless: Controlling Words, Controlling Minds_ (lavishly praised by Ted Cruz) - _How to Destroy America in Three Easy Steps_ (by Ben Shapiro) - _Reasons to Vote for Democrats_. That last one is interesting because it was praised as “a great book for your reading enjoyment” by no less a literary giant than Donald Trump. Now, Trump is not known as much of a reader of books, but it all becomes clear when you get a little further in the blurb about the book, which states: “lefty lawyers require that we state the book is mostly blank”. Yes, folks, the distinguished publisher of Bethany Mandel’s book is selling a book called _Reasons to Vote for Democrats_ that is basically blank pages. Now that’s a class act! And obviously Trump’s kind of book. In fact he could have written it himself. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/219 "2023-03-18T03:19:28Z")
Wow, she sure does imagine herself as a victim there. Conservative projection on display. I haven’t read the whole thread so I don’t know if this has been mentioned. I saw the Little Joel video today and then saw that it was linked here. I think he’s almost got it, but he’s missing the racial element. Identity politics, CRT, etc are all fine for them to lash out at, but _woke_ came from the African American community. So they can now claim to “hate wokeness” as a dog whistle. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/220 "2023-03-18T03:58:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The article is a self-pitying piece of drivel. One wonders why the hell _Newsweek_ ever published it Well, TBF it’s in their “My Turn” column, a grab-bag of “guest contributor essays” ranging from cogent analysis to personal glurge. Not saying that Mandel isn’t something of a low point even for that department, though. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Speaking of reputation, I was curious what sordid outfit would lower itself to publish this imbecile’s book. Well, it’s something called DW Books, which stands for DailyWire Books Yeah, they’re [one of the new crop of rightwing grievance publishers](https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-entertainment-business-new-york-breonna-taylor-faa78abaed5ff00323d05e0c92a182eb) who are all miffed that mainstream publishers have been “canceling” conservative authors over trivial little things like “being despicable” and “antagonizing the reading public” and “losing us more money in boycotts of our frontlist than we could hope to make on your pissant little piece of self-promotion”. > [@](#): > > A publishing division started by the conservative media company the Daily Wire will include releases by Daily Wire co-founder Ben Shapiro, former “Mandalorian” actor Gina Carano, and a book by one of the officers involved in the Breonna Taylor shooting that was dropped by its original distributor. > > DW Books will officially launch next spring [2022], the Nashville-based Daily Wire announced Wednesday. The new publishing arm continues a trend of conservatives setting up channels outside of the New York houses, which in the wake of the Jan. 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol by Donald Trump supporters have become increasingly reluctant to take on authors — including Trump — seen as promoting extremist views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=12)