# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/261 "2023-03-20T23:50:00Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Anti-wokism, as a concept, is a product that is in high demand. So is wokeism, in the sense of virtue signalling. There are plenty of flimflam artists looking to personally profit from wokeism, because profit transcends ideology. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/262 "2023-03-21T00:08:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > So is wokeism, in the sense of virtue signalling. …ascribing “wokeism” to a largely nebulously defined group that really can’t be accurately described outside of “you know it when I see it, but its woke”, is almost virtue signalling in itself. We don’t even know what it is that you mean here. How are you defining woke? Who are you accusing of virtue signalling? Who are the “flimflam” artists? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/263 "2023-03-21T00:11:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There were definitely small groups of people intentionally trying to turn BLM protests violent. As best as i can tell, most of these people are still unknown, but the ones who have been identified were right wing, and presumably trying to discredit the BLM movement. Meh. There are some black flag anarchists who believe that property destruction and attacking the police will galvanize the masses into a general wildcat strike revolution anarchist utopia, or some such twaddle dressed up in poorly-understood Bookchin and Kropotkin. They suck ass, and they’re a fairly small minority of anarchists in my experience, but I’ve known enough of them by name to know they’re out there. Nobody hates them more than yer average garden-variety bookstore-commune-running-and-community-garden-planting mutual-aid anarchist does. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/264 "2023-03-21T00:13:56Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > There are plenty of flimflam artists looking to personally profit from wokeism, because profit transcends ideology. For example…? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/265 "2023-03-21T00:15:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Cite? > > Because anarchists i know have been actively provoked by the police, while attempting to stay peaceful. > **[Black bloc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc)** > > A black bloc is a tactic used by protesters who wear black clothing, ski masks, scarves, sunglasses, motorcycle helmets with padding or other face-concealing and face-protecting items. The clothing is used to conceal wearers' identities and hinder criminal prosecution by making it difficult to distinguish between participants. It is also used to protect their faces and eyes from pepper spray, which is used by police during protests or civil unrest. The tactic also allows the group to appear The... _The first prominent use of the tactic in United States of America occurred at the Pentagon, in Washington, D.C., on 17 October 1988, although anarchists had been using similar tactics in small numbers in preceding years in places like San Francisco, culminating with several hundred anarchists in black smashing glass store fronts and attacking vehicles in the Berkeley Anarchist Riot of 1989.[[19]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc#cite_note-19)[[20]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc#cite_note-20) In D.C., over one thousand demonstrators—a small number consisting of a black bloc—called for the end to U.S. support for the right wing death squads in El Salvador.[[21]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc#cite_note-21) A black bloc caused damage to property of [GAP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_(clothing_retailer)), [Starbucks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starbucks), [Old Navy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Navy), and other retail locations in downtown Seattle during the 1999 [anti-WTO demonstrations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity).[[22]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc#cite_note-22) They were a common feature of subsequent [anti-globalization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globalization) protests.[[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc#cite_note-23)_ ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/266 "2023-03-21T00:23:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …ascribing “wokeism” to a largely nebulously defined group At time of composition, “flimflam artists” seems like a reasonably well defined group. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How are you defining woke? I used the word woke_ism_, and I was explicit that I was using it there as a synonym for _virtue signalling_. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Who are you accusing of virtue signalling? Flimflam artists. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Who are the “flimflam” artists? The flimflam artists _I_ referred to are the class of individuals who incorporate insincere, misleading, or fraudulent virtue signalling into their marketing tactics, thereby capitalizing on conspicuous consumption practices (especially in progressive populations). I thought this was self evident but you proved me wrong. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/267 "2023-03-21T00:27:12Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > At time of composition, “flimflam artists” seems like a reasonably well defined group. …can you name any? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I used the word woke_ism_, and I was explicit that I was using it there as a synonym for _virtue signalling_. So everyone, we have a brand new definition of wokeism for everyone. Its virtue signalling. We will add that to the thousands of other different definitions of wokeism that are our there. We will make sure we append your name to it as well so that when you use it, we know what you mean. Because its different to everybody else. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Flimflam artists. Can you name one? > [@Max\_S](#): > > The flimflam artists _I_ referred to are the class of individuals who incorporate insincere, misleading, or fraudulent virtue signalling into their marketing tactics, thereby capitalizing on conspicuous consumption practices (especially in progressive populations). Can you name one? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I thought this was self evident but you proved me wrong. Can you name one? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/268 "2023-03-21T00:27:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So everyone, we have a brand new definition of wokeism for everyone. Its virtue signalling. No, that’s the same definition, “anything liberal I don’t like”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/269 "2023-03-21T00:34:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > There are plenty of flimflam artists looking to personally profit from wokeism, because profit transcends ideology. > > For example…? With respect to a restaurant’s marketing decision to describe its foods as locally sourced or farm-to-table, one could say the restaurant is woke to the plight of local farmers. Because as I said before, there is a market for wokeism. When such representations are misleading or outright fraudulent, I’m comfortable calling them flimflam artists (a hyperbole, as they do actually provide food). > **[Read the whole series: Farm to Fable](https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2016/food/farm-to-fable/)** > > At local farm-to-table restaurants, chains and farmers markets, you’re being fed fiction. ~Max CC @Banquet_Bear ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/270 "2023-03-21T00:37:18Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Because as I said before, there is a market for wokeism. …there is a market for sustainable, locally sourced food. But that isn’t “wokeism.” Not by any normal definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/271 "2023-03-21T00:39:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > When such representations are misleading or outright fraudulent, I’m comfortable calling them flimflam artists (a hyperbole, as they do actually provide food) And an example of this actually happening would be…? No more theocraticals, please. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/272 "2023-03-21T00:39:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …there is a market for sustainable, locally sourced food. But that isn’t “wokeism.” Agreed, a market for sustainable, locally sourced food isn’t wokeism. ??? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/273 "2023-03-21T00:40:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Agreed, a market for sustainable, locally sourced food isn’t wokeism. …agreed, your example has nothing to do with the topic of woke. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/274 "2023-03-21T00:41:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And an example of this actually happening would be…? > No more theocraticals, please. You may have missed the link to the _Tampa Bay Times_ series, here it is again with their summary. > **[Read the whole series: Farm to Fable](https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2016/food/farm-to-fable/)** > > At local farm-to-table restaurants, chains and farmers markets, you’re being fed fiction. > For years on her beat, _Tampa Bay Times_ food critic Laura Reiley had a hunch that it was all a fairy tale. That those “local” veggies were rejects from the grocery store. That “gulf shrimp” came frozen from India. As the farm-to-table movement boomed in Tampa Bay, Reiley started asking questions. She called food distributors, farmers and fishermen. She drove to farms and found dead bushes. She stowed fish in her purse and had it genetically tested. > > Farm to Fable, a multipart investigation, received national attention and inspired other journalists to tackle similar problems in their cities. And the state of Florida has responded. Attorney General Pam Bondi’s office is currently investigating restaurants throughout Florida. The Department of Business and Professional Regulation stepped up investigations and training, and has recently started issuing farm-to-table-related violations. And the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is working to redefine its Fresh From Florida marketing program. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/275 "2023-03-21T00:43:14Z")
You can link to a seven-part series, but you can’t give a single example from it? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/276 "2023-03-21T00:46:23Z")
> The Mill in St. Petersburg opened last summer to instant acclaim. […] Servers are likely to start proceedings with a mini-disquisition on how all the food comes from within a couple hundred miles of the restaurant (mileage may vary). “Everybody’s spiel is a little different,” said chef-owner Ted Dorsey. “But I say a 250-mile radius.” > > Dorsey said he buys pork from a small Tallahassee farm through food supplier Master Purveyors. But Master Purveyors said it doesn’t sell pork from Tallahassee. Dorsey said he uses quail from Magnolia Farms in Lake City. Master Purveyors said the quail is from Wyoming. Dorsey said he buys dairy from Dakin Dairy Farms in Myakka through Weyand Food Distributors. Weyand said it doesn’t distribute Dakin. Dorsey said he gets local produce from Suncoast Food Alliance and Local Roots. Both said they have not sold to The Mill. He named three seafood suppliers. Two checked out, but a third, Whitney and Son, said they had not sold to The Mill yet. They hope to in the future. > > I called him on all this. He said he needed to speak with his chef, Zach West, and get back to us. The results didn’t get any closer: farmed trout from Idaho, beef from Colorado, yellowfin tuna off the northern East Coast. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/277 "2023-03-21T01:16:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is it because they see human rights as a zero-sum game where if those who are not heterosexual white Christians are treated with respect that somehow there’s less respect left to give to them? Do they think that any rights we recognized for gays or Muslims or minorities mean less rights for heterosexual white Christians? Is it that acceptance of alternate lifestyles and different cultures is a threat to their lifestyle and culture? I mean, yes. You pretty much summed up their fears perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/278 "2023-03-21T01:22:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > a market for sustainable, locally sourced food isn’t wokeism. > > …agreed, your example has nothing to do with the topic of woke. If it helps you understand, here’s a venn diagram: [![](https://i.imgur.com/HxP6sBn.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/HxP6sBn.png) Circle A represents the general market for food. Circle B represents the market for food that is _represented as_ being sustainably sourced, locally sourced, farm-to-table, what have you. Circle C represents the market for food that is _actually_ sustainable sourced, locally sourced, farm-to-table, what have you. The market for wokeism, in the pejorative sense of the word I’ve been using, is equal to B not C. [![](https://i.imgur.com/4gUBi47.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/4gUBi47.png) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/279 "2023-03-21T01:33:37Z")
Was adding a gay couple to the Lightyear movie a “flimflam” move? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/280 "2023-03-21T01:40:46Z")
I’d say only if there’s some level of deception involved. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=15)