# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/281 "2023-03-21T01:44:43Z")
Was there? I ask because I’ve been repeatedly told that Disney “went woke” with that move. I’m trying to resolve that with your definition. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/282 "2023-03-21T01:45:54Z")
Woke and flimflam are two different words with different meanings, and there’s also more than one definition of woke. ETA: Flimflam is like nonsense, strong connotation of trickery. Flimflam artists are scam artists, and just like “scam artist” it is often used as hyperbole. You could argue that Disney’s hesitancy with the whole Don’t Say Gay fiasco proves the Lightyear thing was just virtue signalling. You can also argue that Disney/Pixar isn’t monolithic and the decisions at one level don’t reflect the decisions at another level, or that Disney changed course on the bill in the end. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/283 "2023-03-21T01:47:08Z")
I’m confused. Corporate token virtue signaling, e.g., putting up rainbow flags in June, is [widely discussed on the left](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/rainbow-capitalism-raises-questions-about-corporate-commitments-and-pride-months-purpose). It’s real different from the nonsense that Fox News talks about; for one thing, it’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/284 "2023-03-21T01:52:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Corporate token virtue signaling, e.g., putting up rainbow flags in June, is [widely discussed on the left](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/rainbow-capitalism-raises-questions-about-corporate-commitments-and-pride-months-purpose). It’s real different from the nonsense that Fox News talks about In my experience token virtue signaling is very often (but not always) the direct referent when someone uses “woke” in a pejorative sense. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/285 "2023-03-21T01:57:06Z")
But we already have a pejorative for that – we call it virtue signaling. Eta: so there’s a venn diagram, one circle is virtue signaling and the other is woke. Sometimes they overlap, but not always. How does knowing this help us? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/286 "2023-03-21T02:01:26Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > These are the people that literally fought the National Guard during desegregation. For the most part, no, it quite literally is not. The people who yelled at Guardsmen during the end of desegregation are **very** old now. While I’m sure many get from Fox news that they should hate “woke”, who’s actually conducting this train? Bethany Mandel is 37. Tucker Carlson is 53. Marjorie Taylor Greene is 48. There’s all kinds of people bitching about “Woke” who are in their 20s, 30s and 40s. These people were born long after the civil rights movement. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/287 "2023-03-21T02:02:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > virtue signaling. I don’t hear that term as often from the political right, except when quoting the political left. In fact I haven’t heard “virtue signaling” in organic conversation ever. It’s a newer and more academic term and I’m guessing it has much less currency on the right than the left, similar to how the pejorative “woke” has less currency on the left than the right. ETA: A concrete example, Greg Gutfeld on Fox’s ‘The Five’ last September ([source](https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/five-border-crisis-wokeness-american-companies)) > There’s another little uglier part going on here. Unilever is like a really, really, really wealthy person who brags about giving to charity, even though it’s a tiny percentage, they never give enough to feel it. So, what they’re asking and demanding of other companies, they can’t do. So, all these – all these big giant companies, they are **virtue signaling. They’re saying, look how good we are. We care about social issues, and we care about – they’re only doing it to cover their asses and we know that. That’s all this – that’s all the woke corporate policy is** , it’s to keep the activism out of their front and backyard. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/288 "2023-03-21T02:07:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > similar to how the pejorative “woke” has less currency on the left than the right. When it is twisted into a pejorative, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/289 "2023-03-21T02:18:56Z")
Compare virtue signalling with this blurb from [NBC in 2021](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republicans-are-crusading-against-woke-n1264811), > Among conservatives, “woke” has been adopted as term of derision for those who hold progressive social justice views. **In particular, the word’s right-wing connotation implies a “woke” person or entity is being performative or phony.** It’s directly linked to language like “political correctness” and “cancellation” — which are also at the forefront of conservative messaging. I speculate that many or even most conservatives added the term to their political vocabularies after Kaepernick. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/290 "2023-03-21T02:33:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If it helps you understand, here’s a venn diagram: > > Circle A represents the general market for food. > Circle B represents the market for food that is _represented as_ being sustainably sourced, locally sourced, farm-to-table, what have you. > Circle C represents the market for food that is _actually_ sustainable sourced, locally sourced, farm-to-table, what have you. > > The market for wokeism, in the pejorative sense of the word I’ve been using, is equal to B not C. > > ~Max …you’ve sure gone a long way just to prove that this has nothing to do with woke. Not the real woke, anyway. Just the invented description that you are choosing to use for the purposes of this debate. We are under no obligation to indulge you here. If “wokeism” and “virtue signalling” are the same things to you, thats fine. You can do anything you want in the privacy of your own home. But that isn’t even close to the original meaning of the word. And it isn’t close to how most of us on the boards are using it. And it isn’t even close to how many who use it as a pejorative choose to use it. This thread is literally called “defining woke.” The very least you can do is provide a more concrete definition of the term, and a better example than what you did. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Compare virtue signalling with this blurb from [NBC in 2021](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republicans-are-crusading-against-woke-n1264811), Yeah, as if we’ve all got a blurb from a US based network filed away on speed dial. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/291 "2023-03-21T02:36:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But that […] isn’t even close to how many who use it as a pejorative choose to use it. How about we agree to disagree? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yeah, as if we’ve all got a blurb from a US based network filed away on speed dial. I meant your _definition_ of virtue signalling, not for you to consult the NBC article every time you encounter virtue signalling. (Or this [Vox article](https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy), linked by another member upthread, which also mentions a performative connotation.) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/292 "2023-03-21T02:43:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > How about we agree to disagree? …in a thread called “defining woke?” I think not. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I meant your _definition_ of virtue signalling, not for you to consult the NBC article every time you encounter virtue signalling. To be honest: it isn’t really clear what you mean. At all. Almost everything in marketing has a “preformative connotation.” But that doesn’t mean all marketing is virtue signalling. Its just marketing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/293 "2023-03-21T02:44:52Z")
Late on that, conservatives, even the ones in congress; are adding things like vaccination to what “woke” is supposed to mean among them. > **[Culture wars: House Republicans attack Defense Department for 'woke' social...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/01/02/culture-wars-house-republicans-attack-pentagon-woke-policies/10890619002/)** > > House Republicans plan to open a new front in the culture wars: attacking the Pentagon for its "woke" social policies. It shows how that term is a great dog whistle now, it is harder now to acknowledge by many conservative moderates and a good number of independents that they are being blindsided by the changing _meanings_ that the extreme right is giving to that word. > **[Why the GOP is obsessed with "woke" — but can't define it](https://www.salon.com/2023/03/16/why-the-is-obsessed-with-woke--but-cant-define-it/)** > > MAGA can't explain what "woke" is, but that's the point — it's a "choose your own bigotry" term for Republicans > Mind you, that wasn’t always the case with “woke.” > > It wasn’t so long ago that “woke” was [a slang term from Black America](https://youtu.be/VrXfkPViFIE?t=266), and it meant something substantive and easy to define. To be “woke” was to refuse to be complacent about social injustice. This definition offended Republicans, whose very existence depends on complacency in the face of social injustice. So as an act of very racist revenge, they appropriated the term “woke,” turning it into a catch-all insult for anything that annoys them. > “Woke,” you see, expands and contracts depending upon the momentary needs of authoritarian figures like DeSantis. When teachers are stocking shelves, “woke” is a massive category, covering thousands of books, to the point where it’s easier not to let kids read at all. But when deflecting criticism, “woke” is minuscule, covering almost no books at all. The brilliance of “woke” is that it is Schrödinger’s cat as a political concept. A book is both “woke” and “un-woke,” depending on the moment. In the classroom, the book is “woke” and forbidden. Outside, when speaking to reporters, it’s not “woke.” Indeed, the victims are blamed for misreading “woke,” probably because they are too “woke,” but of course, they will never actually be told what it would take to not be “woke.” > > This is hardly the first time that Republicans have latched onto deliberately amorphous terms to convey a sense of outrage while evading responsibility to define what exactly the hell they are on about. “Marxism,” “socialism,” “political correctness,” “demonic,” “sexualization”: The world of right-wing propaganda is rife with terms that have been appropriated and rendered meaningless, allowing conservatives to apply them to everything. A Republican loves an empty signifier. Specificity invites rational discourse. And rationality is the death of reactionary politics. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/294 "2023-03-21T02:52:03Z")
What ever happened to CRT? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/295 "2023-03-21T02:53:02Z")
Swallowed by the latest definition of woke among hard conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/296 "2023-03-21T02:54:20Z")
…from Max’s article that is being used as evidence of “wokeism”: > [@the alleged article about woke](#): > > Dorsey said he buys pork from a small Tallahassee farm through food supplier Master Purveyors. But Master Purveyors said it doesn’t sell pork from Tallahassee. Dorsey said he uses quail from Magnolia Farms in Lake City. Master Purveyors said the quail is from Wyoming. Dorsey said he buys dairy from Dakin Dairy Farms in Myakka through Weyand Food Distributors. Weyand said it doesn’t distribute Dakin. Dorsey said he gets local produce from Suncoast Food Alliance and Local Roots. Both said they have not sold to The Mill. He named three seafood suppliers. Two checked out, but a third, Whitney and Son, said they had not sold to The Mill yet. They hope to in the future. This isn’t a story about “wokeism”. Its a story about _lying_. The restaurant owner is lying. The food isn’t coming from where he says its coming from. Rich people falsely advertising their products doesn’t have anything to do with “woke.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/297 "2023-03-21T02:57:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Almost everything in marketing has a “preformative connotation.” Well, we disagree about that. It’s fun to say marketing is misleading, but I am of the opinion that most is substantive. Marketing is a broad category of communication and the vast majority of goods for sale or services offered do in fact do what they are represented to do. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But that doesn’t mean all marketing is virtue signalling. Even if it were true that most marketing is performative rather than substantive, it does not follow that all marketing is virtue signalling and your stating so is wholly irrelevant to the discussion as I see it. I claim that there exists a market for wokeism, and that virtue signalling exploits this market. I do not think all marketing is virtue signalling. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/298 "2023-03-21T03:06:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It shows how that term is a great dog whistle now, it is harder now to acknowledge by many conservative moderates and a good number of independents that they are being blindsided by the changing _meanings_ that the extreme right is giving to that word. I don’t know about _blindsided_. If you ask most people for a definition of “woke”, they will be perfectly aware of its nebulous nature. But I think if you ask someone (not a politician) exactly what they mean when they describe something tangible as “woke”, they’ll have no problem dereferencing the term for you in that specific context. I’m sure conservatives (not politicians) complaining about how the DoD is woke will have no difficulty telling you whether they think mandatory vaccinations are a woke policy. ETA: My personal experience is that most of the time, when someone uses woke as a pejorative, they mean behavior which, whether misguided or with deceptive intent, appears to be progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish good. Fits for almost all use cases I’ve encountered, including with one exception the ones you linked. YMMV. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/299 "2023-03-21T03:23:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Well, we disagree about that. It’s fun to say marketing is misleading, but I am of the opinion that most is substantive. …you mean like: “Coke is it!” What is it, anyway? “Just do it.” Just do what? Most marketing isn’t substantive. It isn’t outright misleading, but what the people in the article you cited were doing was _lying_. They were literally making stuff up. Claiming things were happening when they were not. That isn’t virtue signalling. That’s just _lying_. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Marketing is a broad category of communication and the vast majority of goods for sale or services offered do in fact do what they are represented to do. And you cited a case where the owners were _lying_. They lied. It has nothing to do with woke. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Even if it were true that most marketing is performative rather than substantive, it does not follow that all marketing is virtue signalling and your stating so is wholly irrelevant to the discussion as I see it. Speaking of being wholly irrelevant to the discussion as (we) see it: Is this it? Is this single example _the very best you can do?_ A random restaurant claimed he bought pork from a small Tallahassee farm but… SHOCK HORROR He didn’t! He lied. He told a porky. (Get it? Pork, pig, porky, its a pun) How is this, in any way, shape or form, even _tangentially_ relevant to the topic at hand? And you are accusing me of getting off-topic? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I claim that there exists a market for wokeism, and that virtue signalling exploits this market. I do not think all marketing is virtue signalling. People that consider themselves woke are simply “aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues ( **especially issues of racial and social justice** )” The bolded parts are important here. Because while sustainable, locally sourced food is an important issue, if you consider yourself woke, and if you are concerned about racial and social justice, then you are **much** more likely to be concerned about [food deserts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert), and prioritising access and affordable food, than anything to do with food sustainability. I think sustainable, locally sourced food is great for a variety of reasons, none of them virtue signalling. And I’ll go out of my way to support them, because I’m a small business myself, and if locals didn’t support me, then I’d find myself quickly out of business. I’m in the target market. But it isn’t because I am allegedly woke. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/300 "2023-03-21T03:47:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you mean like: No, not like those. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Most marketing isn’t substantive. I still disagree. Marketing is more than just copy from television adverts - Coca Cola somehow manages to get the message across that it sells soft drinks. Somehow, all of the goods and services that you sought out for their functionality got the message across that they provide that functionality. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That isn’t virtue signalling. That’s just _lying_. I disagree. Some virtue signalling _is_ lying, such as when restaurants represent themselves as sensitive to the plight of local farmers but actually don’t give a shit. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The bolded parts are important here. Because while sustainable, locally sourced food is an important issue, if you consider yourself woke, and if you are concerned about racial and social justice, then you are **much** more likely to be concerned about [food deserts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert), and prioritising access and affordable food, than anything to do with food sustainability. If you were correct, no significant number of people would describe vaccine mandates or climate change initiatives as woke. People do so describe those policies as woke, and I think you are wrong. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think sustainable, locally sourced food is great for a variety of reasons, none of them virtue signalling. And I’ll go out of my way to support them, because I’m a small business myself, and if locals didn’t support me, then I’d find myself quickly out of business. > > I’m in the target market. But it isn’t because I am allegedly woke. You might contribute to the market for wokeism _precisely_ because you are sensitive to the issue of sustainable, locally sourced food. If you seek out goods or services because you doing so furthers a societal issue, unless you verify the legitimacy of each good or service with respect to that issue, you could contribute to the market for wokeism. Note that _I’m not calling you woke_ (in the pejorative sense), because it makes sense _to me_ that buying locally sourced food is generally a good thing to do, even if I don’t do it. I happen to buy most of my groceries from a farmer’s market, but exclusively because of the price and convenience. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Is this it? > > Is this single example _the very best you can do?_ > > A random restaurant claimed he bought pork from a small Tallahassee farm but… I picked an issue that is local to me of the top of my head when specifically asked to provide a single example, even if it was written a few years before I moved here. That was _one_ example from a series of investigative reporting that demonstrated a _systemic_ issue in the local economy. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=16)