# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/301 "2023-03-21T03:57:15Z")
Maybe this helps? All usages of woke and wokeism below are pejorative, not to be confused with the original sense of the words. People sell woke things because there’s a market for wokeism. Consumers of woke things aren’t necessarily woke themselves, they can also be misguided or duped. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/302 "2023-03-21T03:59:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > ETA: My personal experience is that most of the time, when someone uses woke as a pejorative, they mean behavior which, whether misguided or with deceptive intent, appears to be progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish good. Fits for almost all use cases I’ve encountered, including with one exception the ones you linked. YMMV. > > ~Max Indeed, the blindside is precisely the case, remember, the important thing is to be aware of how the right wing media and politicians are using the term in bigoted ways that are not as clear to many conservative moderates out there. Better to think that the meaning that was there until recently, the one about being misguided, remains the same. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/303 "2023-03-21T04:01:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I still disagree. Marketing is more than just copy from television adverts - Coca Cola somehow manages to get the message across that it sells soft drinks. Somehow, all of the goods and services that you sought out for their functionality got the message across that they provide that functionality. …and in regard to sustainable, locally sourced food, they manage to get across the message that they _also_ sell food at the restaurant as well. In the example you cited: they simply lied. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I disagree. You can’t disagree. Not here. The restaurant owner was lying. As in false-advertising-should-be-sued level of lying. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Some virtue signalling _is_ lying, such as when restaurants represent themselves as sensitive to the plight of local farmers but actually don’t give a shit. This isn’t virtue signalling. Its JUST LYING. > [@Max\_S](#): > > If you were correct, no significant number of people would describe vaccine mandates or climate change initiatives as woke. I said people **that considered themselves woke.** The people using woke as a pejorative are calling _everything woke_. From vaccine mandates or climate change initiatives to friggen restaurant owners who lie about where they get their pigs. We don’t need to take them seriously. > [@Max\_S](#): > > People do so describe those policies as woke, and I think you are wrong. I’m not wrong. > [@Max\_S](#): > > You might contribute to the market for wokeism _precisely_ because you are sensitive to the issue of sustainable, locally sourced food. The market for wokeism is _affordable_ food, not _sustainable_ food. That you don’t understand the differences really highlight how far away you are from understanding what it is we are talking about here. > [@Max\_S](#): > > If you seek out goods or services because you doing so furthers a societal issue, unless you verify the legitimacy of each good or service with respect to that issue, you could contribute to the market for wokeism. And now you are entering the philosophical debate that framed the final seasons of NBC’s The Good Place. Which is all well and good, but have little to do with the topic at hand. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I picked an issue that is local to me of the top of my head when specifically asked to provide a single example, even if it was written a few years before I moved here. That was _one_ example from a series of investigative reporting that demonstrated a _systemic_ issue in the local economy. So this really _was_ the best you can do. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/304 "2023-03-21T04:03:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The people using woke as a pejorative are calling _everything woke_. From vaccine mandates or climate change initiatives to friggen restaurant owners who lie about where they get their pigs. QFT Many on the conservative or moderate side miss that this is what is going on with that word among many hard conservatives. That is what I mean when I say that many moderates are being blindsided. Of course, I wish we could not take the extremists seriously, unfortunately a good number of the ones using the word in that expansive bigoted or anti-scientific way are in positions of power. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/305 "2023-03-21T04:12:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You can’t disagree. Not here. Feel free to disabuse me of the notion that people can virtue signal by lying about whether they care about a societal issue. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The people using woke as a pejorative are calling _everything woke_. […] **We don’t need to take them seriously.** We disagree about that, too. There’s no point in continuing this conversation if you deny outright that woke even _has_ a pejorative meaning. Of course it has a pejorative meaning. The OP asks why being “woke” is a bad thing, because it is not disputable that a significant number of people use woke in a pejorative sense. It is not, in my opinion, disputable that this pejorative usage prompted the very debate you purport to participate in, and is worthy of consideration. If you can’t accept these bases for discussion, we can’t _have_ a discussion. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/306 "2023-03-21T06:31:22Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > With respect to a restaurant’s marketing decision to describe its foods as locally sourced or farm-to-table, one could say the restaurant is woke to the plight of local farmers. “One could say”? Maybe you could, but to most of us, that sort of definition stretches the meaning of “woke” so broadly that it can literally mean anything at all, and consequently means nothing. The claim of “locally sourced” food means that it’s locally sourced; nothing more and nothing less. Your cite says that such claims are often false. If so, that’s not “woke”; that’s what the law calls “false advertising”. No, your both-sides-ism claim that “there are plenty of flimflam artists looking to personally profit from wokeism” remains unsubstantiated. Meanwhile we have examples like the Bethany Mandel book wherein she tries to make a fast buck by promoting the attention-grabbing claim that liberal “wokeness” is destroying our children, yet when put on the spot, can’t even define what she means by the word. A book, incidentally, published by a disreputable right-wing outlet that has other tomes along exactly the same lines, like how liberalism is destroying America, or how liberals have taken control of the language in order to manipulate our thoughts. To support your claim you need to give us examples of where liberals similarly use wokeness to dishonestly promote garbage narratives solely in order to make a buck, and where they do so on the same scale as the right. So far you’ve failed to do so. Sure, no doubt somewhere some progressive extremist has done something similar, but on the right, this is an entire industry, comprised of entities like “alternative media”, right-wing specialty publishers, a very long list of deliberately provocative pundits like Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Dinesh D’Souza, and on and on, and the movement even has its own very major “news” network on cable entirely dedicated to promoting right-wing garbage narratives. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/307 "2023-03-21T06:49:02Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Feel free to disabuse me of the notion that people can virtue signal by lying about whether they care about a societal issue. …you didn’t provide a citation to someone who was lying about whether they care about a societal issue. You provided a cite to a guy who lied about where he bought his pork. That isn’t virtue signalling. That’s lying about _where he bought his pork_. That isn’t virtue signalling. It isn’t woke. Its a lying liar lying about where he bought his pork. You couldn’t have found a worse example to post here in this thread. And it appears to be your _only_ example. You can’t do better than this. > [@Max\_S](#): > > We disagree about that, too. I mean, why should we take you seriously here in this debate? You are claiming that a guy lying about where he bought his pork from is virtue signalling, therefore that is woke, therefore that is wokeism, and its the only example of a “flimflam artists looking to personally profit from wokeism” that you can find, and you can’t actually define what a “flimflam artist” actually is and… And why should we take any of this seriously? What is there to debate? We have no point of reference. We either accept your premise out of hand or we don’t. I don’t see why we should accept it. The example you cited does not show a “flimflam artists looking to personally profit from wokeism.” **It shows a local business owner who lied about where he bought his pork.** > [@Max\_S](#): > > There’s no point in continuing this conversation if you deny outright that woke even _has_ a pejorative meaning. I haven’t denied that. Its just that the people who use it in the pejorative sense use it to describe pretty much anything they like. Which is exactly what you have done here. So how exactly do you expect us to be able to have a discussion with you? The guy who lied about where he bought his pork will always be virtue signalling in your eyes, which means he will always be an example of wokeism, so what do you want us to do? We will just file your arguments over there with all the other people that use woke as a pejorative and to mean whatever it is you want it to mean. > [@Max\_S](#): > > If you can’t accept these bases for discussion, we can’t _have_ a discussion. I mean: thats a YOU problem. Not a WE problem. You’ve invented a new definition for woke, and you expect the rest of us to simply accept it for the purposes of this debate. I accept that the word is used in two ways. Firstly the _actual_ definition which had its origins in AAVE. And the thousands of variations (one of which you are using here in this thread) used a pejorative that have no common definition, used to apply to _anything_ that you want, mean _anything_ that you want, that you can apply to any random thing thing that you like. Seriously: you are arguing that a guy who lied about where he bought his pork is somehow wokeism, because virtue signalling, because “just believe me bro.” And that’s the only example you can provide. And you somehow think that its _our_ problem that a discussion here simply isn’t possible. If you want to have a discussion here, perhaps start with finding a better example than the one about a man and his meat. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/308 "2023-03-21T10:07:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the people who use it in the pejorative sense use it to describe pretty much anything they like. Missing a “don’t” here, I believe. It’s fairly amazing how Max\_S. refuses to see that most, if not literally all, of the complaining about “woke” from the right is simply a confused label they insist on slapping on all things liberal, progressive, or unaccepting of right-wing values. I find Red Sox fans more subtle than that in labeling every move by the Yankees “sucks.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/309 "2023-03-21T13:43:57Z")
I come here, there’s about 30 posts in this thread, and all I get from it is that Max is confused about marketing versus lying versus wokeism. I don’t really know what to add to this debate, but to lend my voice in support to those who say that the 3 terms actually have 3 separate meanings. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/310 "2023-03-21T14:22:42Z")
I took it to mean _the ideological heirs_ to those who fought the National Guard in an effort to uphold segregation. Those who were [**Carefully Taught**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Got_to_Be_Carefully_Taught). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/311 "2023-03-21T14:26:25Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Those who were [**Carefully Taught**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Got_to_Be_Carefully_Taught). From the link: > [@](#): > > _South Pacific_ received scrutiny for its commentary regarding relationships between different [races](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings)) and [ethnic groups](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group) > > […] > > While the show was on a tour of the Southern United States, lawmakers in Georgia introduced a bill outlawing entertainment containing “an underlying philosophy inspired by Moscow.” Well, as they say, history may not repeat, but it does rhyme. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/312 "2023-03-21T14:34:20Z")
For those who don’t know the song, take a moment and look at the lyrics or give it a listen: > **[You’ve Got to Be Carefully Taught - Song from South Pacific by Rodgers &...](https://rodgersandhammerstein.com/song/south-pacific/youve-got-to-be-carefully-taught/)** > > Explore the song You’ve Got to Be Carefully Taught featuring lyrics and more at the Official Rodgers & Hammerstein website. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/313 "2023-03-21T16:28:36Z")
It is curious this topic seems to be showing up so often here. Is it because people are honestly wanting to understand why “wokeness” is perceived negatively? Or is it because people want assurance that it’s just a figment of right-wing hysteria? When I use woke pejoratively, it’s in reference to a slavish adherence to certain codes of conduct that purport to promote progressivism but in practice achieve illiberalism. This happens when going against these codes of conduct opens people up to disproportionate consequences, which creates a chilling effect that inhibits the very things progressives have historically celebrated. Like free speech, diversity of thought, a healthy distrust towards corporate machinery, intellectual curiosity, and irreverent humor. In my view, “wokeness” has the tightest hold on people and groups that are extra sensitive to being seen as privileged and oppressive. Because they are extra motivated to “be on the right side of history”, they follow these regimented codes of conduct to keep them from being like the unenlightened bigots they want to distance themselves from. This is a well-meaning desire, but the emotion behind it increases their susceptibility to dogmatism and groupthink. What is alleged to have happened to the woman in the story below is what comes to mind when I (and others like me) think of “wokeness”. Obviously I have no way of verifying what she is claiming is true, but nothing she alleges strikes me as fanciful. For instance, plenty of academics still insist on using Latinx [even though polls show the Hispanic community is largely alienated by that term.](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/hispanic-voters-latinx-term-523776) This is a clear example of how a code of conduct meant to be progressively inclusive actually swings around to be the very opposite. This has a disparate impact on historically marginalized groups —which again goes against the aims of true progressivism. ~~LINK REMVOED as violated users topic ban!~~ Progressives are well within their rights to deny there is a problem with “wokeness”. But denials don’t really do anything to combat the perception that an extreme element has successfully hijacked leftist thought. You can’t combat what you pretend doesn’t exist. It would be better not to discuss this topic at all than to generate post after post railing about conservatives who talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/314 "2023-03-21T16:33:25Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Or is it because people want assurance that it’s just a figment of right-wing hysteria? That’s not really a reason at all, but go ahead… > [@YWTF](#): > > When I use woke pejoratively, it’s in reference to a slavish adherence to certain codes of conduct that purport to promote progressivism but in practice achieve illiberalism. Ah, well thank you for assuring us that it’s a just a figment of right-wing hysteria, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/315 "2023-03-21T16:48:26Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I don’t really know what to add to this debate, but to lend my voice in support to those who say that the 3 terms actually have 3 separate meanings. 2 of the terms have their own meanings, but “woke”(when used by the right) means everything and therefore it means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/316 "2023-03-21T16:58:40Z")
ETA: Removed (by JT) because of mod note below. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/318 "2023-03-21T17:10:29Z")
Warning and suspension as your link violated your topic ban as it went in Pronoun issues pretty heavily. Your future here is being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/320 "2023-03-21T17:30:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The claim of “locally sourced” food means that it’s locally sourced; nothing more and nothing less. So it’s not exploiting the market of people who want to support local farmers, it’s just false advertising. By that logic the claim of “black-owned and operated” means it’s black owned and operated, nothing more and nothing less. If it were to come out that a restaurant claimed to be black owned but was actually run by a white dude, by your logic that wouldn’t be a flimflam artist trying to make a fast buck by exploiting the market of people who go out of their way to support black-owned businesses, it would just be false advertising. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Maybe you could, but to most of us, that sort of definition stretches the meaning of “woke” so broadly that it can literally mean anything at all, and consequently means nothing. If it wasn’t clear, I take the position that “woke” can be used and is used as a pejorative without being so loosely defined as to encompass literally anything and be meaningless. My impression of **Banquet\_Bear** ’s position, and it seems yours too, is that you aren’t interested in any definitions of woke that can apply to something like how restaurants advertise the sourcing of their ingredients. Perhaps you, too, reject out of hand any definitions that apply to COVID-19 vaccines, or to policies designed to address climate change. If so we have nothing to discuss. All three have been described to me, in verbal conversation, as “woke”, and as a precondition to debate I would require any definition to encompass those subjects because that reflects the usage I experience. Assuming there is still a debate to be had over the definition of ‘woke’, I think the best way to prove or disprove a definition is to see if it matches use cases. This was my definition: > My personal experience is that most of the time, when someone uses woke as a pejorative, they mean behavior which, whether misguided or with deceptive intent, appears to be progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish good. I should note that when I wrote “progressive” there, I literally meant something that improves society, without the ironic connotations sometimes attached to “progressivism” in America. Here are a couple nonexhaustive lists. Imagine you are a stereotypical American conservative. Take your working definition of ‘woke’ and see how it fares: ## Things usually derided as ‘woke’ Health/COVID-19 - vaccination policies - masking policies - distancing/curfew/lockdown policies Environmental/Climate Change - paper straws - gas taxes - all-electric pledges - greenwashing Children/School - critical race theory, - children’s media depicting same sex couples, - pulled Dr. Seuss books, - gender affirming care, Organization/Workplace - banning words / political correctness, - diversity policies percieved as unreasonable, - pronouns in emails and online profiles, - sign-language interpreters, Displays/Social Justice - Black Lives Matter apparel/signs/decals, - #MeToo\* apparel/signs/decals - I Stand With Ukraine\* flags/apparel/signs/decals, - Pride\* flags/apparel/signs/decals, - Celebrities using their celebrity status to draw attention to social causes Business/Consumer Behavior - going out of your way to buy from minority-owned\* businesses, - conscientious consumerism in general, - lending practices that favor minorities\*, - pledges to improve minority\* communities, - politically correct rebranding (Land O Lakes, Aunt Jemima, etc.) - going out of your way to represent women/people of color/people with disabilities/etc in your projects \* The affected group wouldn’t be called ‘woke’ for supporting their own causes or issues. See negative use cases, below. ### Things not usually derided as ‘woke’ - Bad weather - Traffic jams - Loud neighbors - Rival sports teams - Inflation - Annoying voices - Speaking a foreign language Health/COVID-19 - Getting vaccinated, personally - Masking, isolating when sick - Going out of your way to eat organic because you think it tastes better - Planning diet around allergies and intolerances - Doing what is necessary to care for or protect yourself/loved ones Environmental/Climate Change - Firefighting - Beach cleanups / conservation - Air quality / smog ordinances - Recycling programs - Forest conservation measures - Wildlife conservation measures - Natural gas - Going paperless due to convenience as opposed to purported environmental reasons Children/School - Math (DeSantis capitalized on the fact that Math isn’t considered woke) - Pledge of allegience - Teaching that slavery was the predominant driver of the civil war - Colorblindness - Sunday school - Laws restricting gender affirming care - Laws differentiating school facilities by sex assigned at birth Organization/Workplace - Diversity policies percieved as reasonable (i.e. no office romance) Displays/Social Justice - Flying an American flag - Flying a State flag - Neighbors who fly a Confederate flag, even if you don’t like it - A gay couple flying a Pride flag at their own house - Military signage or decals because you or a loved one are/were in the military - Flying a POW flag or decals because you or a loved one were once a prisoner of war - Visible religious symbols (Christianity, but also any other religion) - The act of displaying electoral signage or decals - Unconditional charity Business/Consumer Behavior - Buying American - Buying local - Going out of your way to eat at a Mexican restaurant because you like Mexican food - Going out of your way to frequent businesses due to good service, which happen to be minority-owned businesses - Special efforts to better a minority community one belongs to - Sin taxes on alcohol, cigarettes ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/321 "2023-03-21T17:39:10Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > So it’s not exploiting the market of people who want to support local farmers, it’s just false advertising. It is false advertising. It is fraud. It is a lot of things. It is not “woke.” Woke people are honest. > [@Max\_S](#): > > By that logic the claim of “black-owned and operated” means it’s black owned and operated, nothing more and nothing less. Yes. Are you saying it means more or less than that? Like what? > [@Max\_S](#): > > If it were to come out that a restaurant claimed to be black owned but was actually run by a white dude, by your logic that wouldn’t be a flimflam artist trying to make a fast buck by exploiting the market of people who go out of their way to support black-owned businesses, it would just be false advertising. It would be a lot of things. It wouldn’t be “woke.” Woke, that that context would be the desire to support minority owned businesses. (of course, that’s probably a good way to be woke. I’m sure someone has an objection to it though). Maybe it’s fraud targeting at the woke people. But the fraud isn’t woke, it’s just fraud. > [@Max\_S](#): > > you aren’t interested in any definitions of woke that can apply to something like how restaurants advertise the sourcing of their ingredients If a restaurant buys locally, you can call that restaurant woke I suppose. If they’re lying about it, that’s the opposite of woke. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/322 "2023-03-21T17:39:32Z")
Thank you for taking the time to type up this list; it’s very helpful. What about NASCAR banning confederate flags? That’s been routinely described as “woke.” Is that a misguided attempt to be progressive but fails to accomplish anything good? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=17)