# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/323 "2023-03-21T17:42:55Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > It is not “woke.” Woke people are honest. […] It would be a lot of things. It wouldn’t be “woke.” The post you were responding to concerned ‘woke’ as used in a strictly pejorative sense. When Republicans call out ‘woke’ Democrat policies, it’s not a complement about their honesty, it’s a low grade insult. There’s a strong connotation that the object being modified is bad for society. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/324 "2023-03-21T17:52:59Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Is that a misguided attempt to be progressive but fails to accomplish anything good? It depends on who you ask. I’m guessing a good number of conservatives would say banning the confederate flag doesn’t accomplish anything good, overall. The question is whether it is more good for society to ban the flag and risk bothering the racists and lost causers ever so slightly, versus not ban the flag and continue to bother people of color. As for me personally, I don’t follow NASCAR but I see how it could bother some people of color. > [@Should Confederate Flags be banned from NASCAR events?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-confederate-flags-be-banned-from-nascar-events/855321/4): > > You won’t see me complaining. I’m sympathetic to those who want to preserve symbols of the Confederacy as reminders of history, not those who appropriate them as symbols of pride. There’s no need to fly that flag in a sporting event. ~Max You would use similar analysis for the question of whether it is ‘woke’ to remove confederate statues. It comes down to whether removing the statue appears to improve society, but actually doesn’t. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/325 "2023-03-21T18:00:00Z")
Yep. And that applies to everything on your list that’s not obviously bad (e.g. greenwashing, by definition) or pointless virtue signaling. I think that: Masking policies Gas taxes Children’s media depicting same sex couples Sign language interpreters Representation for minorities All improve society, just to pick a subset from your list. And conservatives don’t, which is why those are liberal positions and not conservative positions. Which brings us back to what Little Joel said in the video posted above, that the real definition of woke just means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/326 "2023-03-21T18:05:30Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Which brings us back to what Little Joel said in the video posted above, that the real definition of woke just means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” I don’t think that definition works. A gay couple who flies a pride flag at their own house isn’t being ‘woke’ any more than the gold star family who flies a POW flag at their own house. A woman who has an abortion is not being ‘woke’ no matter how much you might disagree with the legality or morality of the matter. You can do liberal stuff for 100% personal reasons, like self expression or self interest. “Liberal stuff” is much broader than progressive behavior intended to improve society, but I only consider a subset of the latter to be ‘woke’ behavior. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/327 "2023-03-21T18:05:30Z")
Couple (more) of my patented pithy points on this one: 1. The more things change, the more they stay the same. I give you the lyrics to the **[theme song from “All In The Family”](https://www.songfacts.com/lyrics/archie-and-edith-bunker/those-were-the-days-theme-to-all-in-the-family)** 1. I give you [**a two-page PDF, Study finds left-wing brain, right-wing brain**](http://www.uky.edu/AS/PoliSci/Peffley/pdf/Study%20finds%20left-wing%20brain_%20right-wing%20brain.pdf) I’ve referenced the latter on the SDMB before. I think it fits here. It helps us understand how the RW exploits an apparent, somewhat neurobiological difference between liberals and conservatives. The TL;DR of the paper is: > A study by scientists at New York University and the University of California, Los Angeles, found differences in how self-described liberal and conservative research participants responded to changes in patterns. Participants were asked to tap a keyboard when the letter “M” appeared on a computer monitor and to refrain from tapping when they saw a “W.” The letter “M” appeared four times more frequently than “W,” conditioning participants to press the keyboard on almost every trial. Liberal participants made fewer mistakes than conservatives when they saw the rare “W,” indicating to the researchers that these participants were better able to accept changes or conflicts in established patterns. The participants were also wired to an electroencephalograph that recorded activity in their anterior cingulate cortex, the part of the brain that detects conflicts between a habitual tendency and a more appropriate response. Liberals were significantly more likely than conservatives to show activity in the brain circuits that deal with conflicts during the experiment, and this correlated with their greater accuracy in the test. It’s certainly possible to judge whether one brain is better, or better suited to certain environments, than the other, but what the RW has done is to defend every aspect of the brain that doesn’t ‘like’ change while simultaneously demonizing and making a caricature out of the brain that … is pretty okay with it. The irony is that the social conservative, in this regard, doesn’t just go back to Archie Bunker. It goes back to Bunker … Hill (and before). And that’s only in the US. The only thing that’s constant is … change. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/328 "2023-03-21T18:05:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > the real definition of woke just means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” Eh, the GQP definition of woke means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” That doesn’t make it the “real” definition. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/329 "2023-03-21T18:11:01Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You would use similar analysis for the question of whether it is ‘woke’ to remove confederate statues. It comes down to whether removing the statue appears to improve society, but actually doesn’t. Uh, it does in the sense of not having a constant reminder of a peculiar institution, put in place by racists that also decided to continously tell blacks and other minorities about the place they should have in society. > **[Confederate Statues Were Built To Further A 'White Supremacist Future'](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future)** > > President Trump hasn't mentioned it as he's defended the memorabilia over the past week, but historians say the statues were originally built to send a clear message to black Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/330 "2023-03-21T18:11:34Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I’ve referenced the latter on the SDMB before. I think it fits here. It helps us understand how the RW exploits an apparent, somewhat neurobiological difference between liberals and conservatives. Caveats, the sample used college students (not representative), the study is from 2007 (different definition of conservative), and as far as I can tell neither the sample size nor the number of trials are given in that summary. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/331 "2023-03-21T18:13:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You can do liberal stuff for 100% personal reasons, like self expression or self interest. Right, for instance if a copyright holder decides that their sales are slacking because the material they hold is getting pretty dated. Would updating some of that material to contemporary standards so that they can sell more books be “woke”, by your definition? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/332 "2023-03-21T18:17:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > the real definition of woke just means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” > > Eh, the GQP definition of woke means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” > > That doesn’t make it the “real” definition. Agree. But when the right wing are the _only_ people using the term these days, their meaning becomes the real meaning in a way. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/333 "2023-03-21T18:18:47Z")
Not to belabor the point, but I think there have been quite a few studies that tend to corroborate the one I mentioned: > **[These key psychological differences can determine whether you're liberal or...](https://www.businessinsider.com/psychological-differences-between-conservatives-and-liberals-2018-2#conservatives-tend-to-display-more-ordered-thinking-patterns-whereas-liberals-have-more-aha-moments-5)** > > Scientists have studied the brains of conservatives and liberals and found startling differences in how they process information and see the world. And – again – while I may have my feelings about “better” or “worse,” I think the larger point is in the context of the OP: exploitation OF those differences by demonization of The Other and constant reinforcement that Ours Is The Way and the Truth and the Light. And when I say “demonization,” I have also previously referenced how the RW is, of late, painting basically every LW position as some measure of existential threat. I just think “woke” as a snarl word … fits into that paradigm. And is cynical as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/334 "2023-03-21T18:23:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Would updating some of that material to contemporary standards so that they can sell more books be “woke”, by your definition? Good question! I think it could be. The lines get quite fuzzy when someone tries to punt responsability. Just following orders, just business, etc. There are two essential elements to my definition of the pejorative ‘woke’: 1. Behavior which appears to be progressive 2. Behavior which doesn’t actually accomplish good The business says they aren’t trying to be progressive, they’re just catering to the people. But with my definition, that’s irrelevant. What matters for 1. is that the decision appears to be progressive, and what matters for 2. is whether it actually is. Answering your actual question would depend on the materials and standards involved. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/335 "2023-03-21T18:27:04Z")
Huh, so it’s just straight up attempt to control the language, Orwellian style. Take a word that has meaning to a small group of people, a word not _used_ much, but a word that has meaning. Co-op that word, turning it into a slur, then when the original users of the word no longer want to use it for fear of it being confused with the troll’s use of it, the capture is complete, and now only those who use it hatefully are the ones using it. It’s a pattern, even the word “liberal” itself gets used this way by alt-right trolls, but at least there is enough inertia to that word that it’s not the only time people have heard it. Is there actually a way to fight it? We could _try_ reclaiming the word, but that means having this 330 post conversation everytime we use it. Or do we just join in? We can redefine words that the Republicans use. “Family values” means raping your daughter. “Small government” means raping your neighbor. “Rule of Law” means raping the police." Fiscal conservative" means raping strangers. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/336 "2023-03-21T18:27:47Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Behavior which doesn’t actually accomplish good Who defines what is “good” in this definition that you have made up? If I have a restaurant, and I decide to add pepperoni pizza to my menu because people ask for it, is that woke? What if I decide to add vegan options because people ask for it, is that woke? If one is and one isn’t, could you explain why? Since when are conservatives against businesses responding to the demands of their customers? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/337 "2023-03-21T18:27:59Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > And when I say “demonization,” I have also previously referenced how the RW is, of late, painting basically every LW position as some measure of existential threat. > [@"Walter Lagner](#): > > His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it. It’s a classic playbook. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/338 "2023-03-21T18:28:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Co-op that word, turning it into a slur, then when the original users of the word no longer want to use it for fear of it being confused with the troll’s use of it, the capture is complete, and now only those who use it hatefully are the ones using it. See also, “defund the police”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/339 "2023-03-21T18:29:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Or do we just join in? We can redefine words that the Republicans use. “Family values” means raping your daughter. “Small government” means raping your neighbor. “Rule of Law” means raping the police." Fiscal conservative" means raping strangers. Change that to “screwing” (as in screwing over, not sex) and most of those are correct. Family values? “Screw you kid, you’re a parent at 16” Small Government? “Screw you neighbor, no one’s gonna tell me what to do on my property, and I don’t care how it impacts you.” Rule of Law? “Screw you, minorities, the law’s not for you.” Fiscal conservative? “Screw you, I’ve got mine!” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/340 "2023-03-21T18:31:10Z")
Yes, that would be another example of alt-right trolls twisting something out of context to fit their false narrative as well. I guess my question is, when you are giving your definition, is this the definition as _you_ use it, or are you acknowledging that the uses you are talking about are done by hateful people in bad faith? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/341 "2023-03-21T18:31:56Z")
Oh, they’ll do that, too. Hell, they’ve been doing that since at least Nixon. But first they will literally sexually assault them. That’s what those words mean. I have decided. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/342 "2023-03-21T18:35:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Who defines what is “good” in this definition that you have made up? Societal good, as in the goal of progressive behavior. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > If I have a restaurant, and I decide to add pepperoni pizza to my menu because people ask for it, is that woke? I don’t see how that counts as progressive. It’s not really a political or societal issue, in my opinion and probably yours too. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > What if I decide to add vegan options because people ask for it, is that woke? Depends on who you ask. To you it won’t appear to be a progressive decision, it will appear to be a business decision. As to whether it does any societal good for one restaurant to offer vegan food, the answer’s probably no but that’s also a value judgement. That won’t stop a conservative publication from lighthearted lamentations of how even **k9bfriender** ’s pizza place is woke nowadays, with vegan flatbreads or what have you. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=18)