# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/343 "2023-03-21T18:42:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Societal good, as in the goal of progressive behavior. So individual good is what? If I make a decision based on what I think is best for my own needs > [@Max\_S](#): > > As to whether it does any societal good for one restaurant to offer vegan food, the answer’s probably no but that’s also a value judgement. I don’t care about societal good, I care about my bottom line. People said that they wanted vegan options, so I added them to the menu. I make more money now than I did because of that decision. You haven’t explained how that is any different than adding pepperoni pizza to the menu, except in how some particular right wing trolls will respond to it. > [@Max\_S](#): > > That won’t stop a conservative publication from lighthearted lamentations of how even **k9bfriender** ’s pizza place is woke nowadays, with vegan flatbreads or what have you. Yeah, I’m sure it will be “lighthearted”. But, so what I am getting from you is that people who use the definition of “woke” the way that you are saying it should be used are liars who are full of hatred? We already knew that. The question is whether we should allow deceptive people with ill intent to have as much control over the language. Since when are conservatives against businesses responding to the demands of their customers? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/344 "2023-03-21T18:48:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t care about societal good, I care about my bottom line. You don’t care, but ‘woke’ v not-woke does. You don’t have to care whether you’re being ‘woke’ or not. Not all pejorative uses of ‘woke’ are equally strong, and vegan offerings at a pizza place is real low. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > But, so what I am getting from you is that people who use the definition of “woke” the way that you are saying it should be used are liars who are full of hatred? I’m not saying that at all. Sure, there’s manufactured outrage - that’s what it would be if someone complained about a ‘woke’ restaurant simply because it has vegan offerings. Manufactured outrage is recreational. Hatred is a wholly different beast. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Since when are conservatives against businesses responding to the demands of their customers? Hahaha, you crack me up! ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/345 "2023-03-21T18:54:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t see how that counts as progressive. It’s not really a political or societal issue, in my opinion and probably yours too. > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > What if I decide to add vegan options because people ask for it, is that woke? > > Depends on who you ask. To you it won’t appear to be a progressive decision, it will appear to be a business decision. As to whether it does any societal good for one restaurant to offer vegan food, the answer’s probably no but that’s also a value judgement. That won’t stop a conservative publication from lighthearted lamentations of how even **k9bfriender** ’s pizza place is woke nowadays, with vegan flatbreads or what have you. Omg, Max, do you not see how you’re making this up as you go along? 😂 Pizzerias have been offering vegetable pizzas for as long as I’ve been alive. And here you are calling my Dad’s girlfriends from 1978 ‘woke’ because they didn’t like his Supreme pizzas from Pizza Hut. 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/346 "2023-03-21T18:54:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I guess my question is, when you are giving your definition, is this the definition as _you_ use it, or are you acknowledging that the uses you are talking about are done by hateful people in bad faith? False choice. It’s the working definition I use to understand people I talk to, with no implication that they or I are hateful or talk in bad faith. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/347 "2023-03-21T18:55:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You don’t care, but ‘woke’ v not-woke does. You don’t have to care whether you’re being ‘woke’ or not. Not all pejorative uses of ‘woke’ are equally strong, and vegan offerings at a pizza place is real low. You don’t have to care about being woke in order to be accused of being woke. Okay, so do you think that updating some language in James and the Giant Peach is woke? Do you think that the IP owners cared about being woke, or did they just care about the bottom line? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I’m not saying that at all. Sure, there’s manufactured outrage - that’s what it would be if someone complained about a ‘woke’ restaurant simply because it has vegan offerings. Manufactured outrage is recreational. That’s the content of 95% of accusations of “woke”. That’s what the person in the OP calls woke. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Hatred is a wholly different beast. The hatred is the motivation for the lying and the perjoratives. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Hahaha, you crack me up! Heh, you’re right. They’ve _never_ been for businesses responding to the demands of their customers. Only the demands of white supremacists. For a while, longer than it should have been, those were mostly one and the same. The whole meltdown of the far right is that the needs of _others_ are being considered, and not just that of the privileged. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/348 "2023-03-21T18:56:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Omg, Max, do you not see how you’re making this up as you go along? Pizzerias have been offering vegetable pizzas for as long as I’ve been alive. This is **k9bfriender** ’s hypothetical, which I was asked to judge. And it’s vegan, not vegetarian. No cheese, or I guess special vegan cheese if that’s a thing. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/349 "2023-03-21T19:00:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t have to care about being woke in order to be accused of being woke. You also don’t have to care about being accused of being woke. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, so do you think that updating some language in James and the Giant Peach is woke? Haven’t read it, sorry. We did Charlette’s Web instead. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s the content of 95% of accusations of “woke”. I would agree, maybe not 95%, but definitely the vast majority. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The hatred is the motivation for the lying and the perjoratives. Nope, disagree there. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/350 "2023-03-21T19:06:21Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > A gay couple who flies a pride flag at their own house isn’t being ‘woke’ Are the people flying the Confederate flag claiming to be actual Confederates? Are the Confederate statues in question only on the grounds owned by the people in the statues, or at least only on grounds owned by their direct descendents? Are children who have gay people within their immediate families allowed to have children’s media depicting same sex couples? How about if the gay person within their immediate family is themselves? (The gender affirming care can’t very well be anyone other than themselves. Not to mention that we’re all drowning in “gender affirming care” – down to segregated toy aisles, and segregated clothing sections even for children too young to require clothing shaped for post-pubertal bodies.) – the dividing line’s got nothing to do with whose land it’s on. It’s got to do with whether it’s perceived as “liberal.” > [@Max\_S](#): > > There are two essential elements to my definition of the pejorative ‘woke’: > > 1. Behavior which appears to be progressive > 2. Behavior which doesn’t actually accomplish good But most of the behavior you’re listing does actually accomplish good. You need to rephrase the second part of your definition into either “behavior which I think isn’t accomplishing good” or at least “behavior which the people using this definition claim isn’t accomplishing good, whether because they think it isn’t accomplishing anything or because they disagree about what’s ‘good’.” > [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > If I have a restaurant, and I decide to add pepperoni pizza to my menu because people ask for it, is that woke? > > I don’t see how that counts as progressive. It’s not really a political or societal issue, in my opinion and probably yours too. What if the pepperoni’s made by a local butcher using pasture-raised pork from a local farm (presuming that those things are actually true)? And what if that’s still because people are asking for it? > [@Max\_S](#): > > As to whether it does any societal good for one restaurant to offer vegan food, the answer’s probably no but that’s also a value judgement. Why on earth would it not be a societal good for people to be able to get what they want to eat? Or are you somehow arguing that we’d have a better society if no restaurants, or presumably groceries, offered any choice of menu, and everybody had to eat the same things? If so, why would that be preferable? > [@Max\_S](#): > > Manufactured outrage is recreational. Not for the people it’s aimed against. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/351 "2023-03-21T19:19:56Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s the working definition I use to understand people I talk to, with no implication that they or I are hateful or talk in bad faith. But you say that conservatives will “lightheartedly” lie about my reasons for putting vegan options on my menu. How is that in good faith? What is their motivation for lying? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/352 "2023-03-21T19:20:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Huh, so it’s just straight up attempt to control the language, Orwellian style. > > Take a word that has meaning to a small group of people, a word not _used_ much, but a word that has meaning. > > Co-op that word, turning it into a slur, then when the original users of the word no longer want to use it for fear of it being confused with the troll’s use of it, the capture is complete, and now only those who use it hatefully are the ones using it. > > It’s a pattern, even the word “liberal” itself gets used this way by alt-right trolls, but at least there is enough inertia to that word that it’s not the only time people have heard it. > > Is there actually a way to fight it? We could _try_ reclaiming the word, but that means having this 330 post conversation everytime we use it. > > Or do we just join in? We can redefine words that the Republicans use. “Family values” means raping your daughter. “Small government” means raping your neighbor. “Rule of Law” means raping the police." Fiscal conservative" means raping strangers. I’m in favor of fighting fire with fire. We won’t ever win over the truly hateful people, but we can at least convince those people who get confused by propaganda to swing to the left. I think the American flag in particular would be a good choice to use when faced with those who use “alternative” flags like the Confederate flag or Gadsden flag. The idea would be something like “I fly the American flag because I’m a true American. Why are you flying those other flags? Are you not a patriotic American?” > [@Max\_S](#): > > See also, “defund the police”. > > ~Max In this case I think using a character from popular culture would be helpful. Turn it around and say something like “What we want is to rid the force of Eric Cartmans. Being a police officer should be about protecting and serving, not demanding that others respect your authority.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/353 "2023-03-21T19:22:56Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You also don’t have to care about being accused of being woke. I suppose I don’t. I mean, it may affect my business and my safety, but sure. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Haven’t read it, sorry. We did Charlette’s Web instead. Ah, so you are saying that you are completely unaware of the controversy over changing some of the language in that book? > [@Max\_S](#): > > Nope, disagree there. Okay, what are you saying is the motive for the lying and the pejoratives? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/354 "2023-03-21T19:23:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But most of the behavior you’re listing does actually accomplish good. Good and bad are subjective concepts. I think it’s right and proper for it to stay that way in a dictionary-style definition. What will actually happen in conversation is, a conservative will say something is woke, and you’ll disagree, because the two of you have underlying differences in whether the thing being discussed actually accomplishes good. Compare, “That coat is expensive.” It is implied that the speaker believes the coat is expensive, it may not necessarily be true that you agree since you may have a different underlying threshold for what is or isn’t expensive. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why on earth would it not be a societal good for people to be able to get what they want to eat? There’s a cost involved in providing that access, which may or may not be justified. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Not for the people it’s aimed against. While that is true, some of the time, hatred is a feeling one has towards others and therefore (like all feelings) is not something that can be dictated by the recipient. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/355 "2023-03-21T19:26:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But you say that conservatives will “lightheartedly” lie about my reasons for putting vegan options on my menu. No, I did no such thing. I never said anything about lying. Manufactured outrage can be and usually is an overreaction, it doesn’t have to be lying or made from whole cloth. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/356 "2023-03-21T19:28:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > What will actually happen in conversation is, a conservative will say something is woke, and you’ll disagree, because the two of you have underlying differences in whether the thing being discussed actually accomplishes good. You just keep circling back around to the definition of “woke” that it is something that conservatives don’t like. And no one here disagrees with that. It’s utterly meaningless when spat from the lips of a right winger, it just conveys their hatred. That’s all it means and all it will ever mean to them, hate. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/357 "2023-03-21T19:30:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You just keep circling back around to the definition of “woke” that it is something that conservatives don’t like. I’m not circling back to that, at least not intentionally. I never held that position. I disagree with that definition. Do you think I contradicted myself with this? I don’t see any contradiction. > [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > Which brings us back to what Little Joel said in the video posted above, that the real definition of woke just means “liberal stuff that I don’t like.” > > I don’t think that definition works. A gay couple who flies a pride flag at their own house isn’t being ‘woke’ any more than the gold star family who flies a POW flag at their own house. A woman who has an abortion is not being ‘woke’ no matter how much you might disagree with the legality or morality of the matter. You can do liberal stuff for 100% personal reasons, like self expression or self interest. “Liberal stuff” is much broader than progressive behavior intended to improve society, but I only consider a subset of the latter to be ‘woke’ behavior. > > ~Max ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/358 "2023-03-21T19:31:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And no one here disagrees with that. It’s utterly meaningless when spat from the lips of a right winger, it just conveys their hatred. That’s all it means and all it will ever mean to them, hate. If woke didn’t exist, the right wing would have to invent it. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/359 "2023-03-21T19:31:59Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It is curious this topic seems to be showing up so often here. Is it because people are honestly wanting to understand why “wokeness” is perceived negatively? Or is it because people want assurance that it’s just a figment of right-wing hysteria? I think it is because the right uses the term as a social ill that must be curtailed through the use of state enforcement and the loss of individual,liberties, but they cannot define what it is they are trying to eradicate. This lack of definition means that the right can manipulate the term to mobilize violent bigots to harass a wide variety of Americans while distracting these violent bigots from their real agenda. It is a classic tactic of fascists. The Stop Woke Act in Florida is a case in point. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/360 "2023-03-21T19:32:11Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > No, I did no such thing. I never said anything about lying. This may need a different thread, but _I_ define lying as saying something as if it were true that is not true. You seem to have a different definition. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Manufactured outrage can be and usually is an overreaction, it doesn’t have to be lying or made from whole cloth. Well, except when it is, as it would be in your example of a conservative publication that “lightheartedly” laments that my restaurant is woke because I serve vegan options. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/361 "2023-03-21T19:33:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This may need a different thread, but _I_ define lying as saying something as if it were true that is not true. Works for me. ‘Woke’, like good and bad, is subjective. It is not a matter of fact. Conservatives can call you woke when you don’t think you are woke, and nobody is necessarily lying. (Being subjective doesn’t mean ‘woke’ is without form or meaningless either. There are uses of ‘woke’ that don’t work, which I posted a list of.) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/362 "2023-03-21T19:35:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Do you think I contradicted myself with this? Yes. > [@Max\_S](#): > > a conservative will say something is woke, and you’ll disagree, because the two of you have underlying differences in whether the thing being discussed actually accomplishes good. So, one says it is good, the other says it isn’t good. One doesn’t say it’s woke, the other says it’s woke. The difference, the one saying its woke doesn’t think it’s good. This is very easy to follow. I don’t see how you can’t see any contradiction, but then, you also don’t see how saying things that are not true is a lie. So, I’m not sure if your definition of the word “contradiction” is useful here either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=19)