# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/363 "2023-03-21T19:35:46Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Conservatives can call you woke when you don’t think you are woke, and nobody is necessarily lying. Ah, so I can call a conservative a rapist when they don’t think they are a rapist, and nobody is necessarily lying? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/364 "2023-03-21T19:37:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, so I can call a conservative a rapist when they don’t think they are a rapist, and nobody is necessarily lying? I sense the gotcha, but I’ll say not necessarily. I can think of contrived situations which would be way offtopic to get into. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/365 "2023-03-21T19:38:06Z")
This conversation has a very George Constanza vibe right now - “It’s not a lie if you believe it!” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/366 "2023-03-21T19:38:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I sense the gotcha I mean, it’s not a gotcha when I’ve been screaming where I’m leading you. The horse isn’t _surprised_ when it finds itself at the water. > [@Max\_S](#): > > but I’ll say not necessarily. Okay, so if I can’t say untrue things about conservatives without it being a lie, then why can conservatives say untrue things about me without it being a lie? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/367 "2023-03-21T19:40:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > why can conservatives say untrue things about me without it being a lie? Point in contention. The pejorative ‘woke’, like good and bad, is subjective and is not objectively true or false. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/368 "2023-03-21T19:41:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The pejorative ‘woke’, like good and bad, is subjective and is not objectively true or false “The SVB bank troubles were caused by its woke policies.” True or false? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/369 "2023-03-21T19:45:29Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > “The SVB bank troubles were caused by its woke policies.” True or false? For me, I personally would have to do research into SVB bank before forming an opinion. Other people will necessarily have their own opinions. So the answer would be > [@Max\_S](#): > > It depends on who you ask. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I think it could be. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Depends on who you ask. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/370 "2023-03-21T19:46:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Point in contention. The pejorative ‘woke’, like good and bad, is subjective and is not objectively true or false. Point in contention, that’s _your_ contention, that we are arguing against. You can’t use your conclusion to prove your conclusion. But, if you are saying that it means nothing at all, and is just a swear word, like the intelligible utterance one makes when one stubs their toe, then I’ll agree that that’s what it has come to mean to the alt-right. That was never in question. The question was, “What does it mean?”, and your answer seems to be, “It means nothing and everything, it means exactly what I want it to mean when I want it to mean those things, and it doesn’t mean the things that I don’t want it to mean when I don’t want it to mean those things.” The pejorative use of it is what has _made_ it subjective, as a bunch of people who didn’t care what it meant chose to start using it in a hateful manner. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/371 "2023-03-21T19:47:29Z")
Really? I felt downright flattered to realize I met the description of “woke” upthread. Surprised, sure; but flattered. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/372 "2023-03-21T19:48:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Point in contention, that’s _your_ contention, that we are arguing against. I think you misunderstand, the point in contention is whether conservatives said untrue things about you. The conclusion is that in the hypothetical, conservatives aren’t lying. The subjective nature of ‘woke’ as I define it is a premise. Your argument being, I think, that conservatives in the hypothetical say untrue things about you, and that means they are lying. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/373 "2023-03-21T19:50:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The conclusion is that in the hypothetical, conservatives aren’t lying. The subjective nature of ‘woke’ as I define it is a premise. So, they aren’t lying, they just aren’t saying anything. The may as well be saying that my Pizza place is “ëäS≥ZÿåéCS╢+i↑¿” for all the meaning that “woke” has. Is that what you are saying? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/374 "2023-03-21T19:51:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, they aren’t lying, they just aren’t saying anything. It doesn’t follow at all. ‘Woke’ is subjective but it still has meaning. There are use cases where ‘woke’ doesn’t make sense; and it is more specific than a generic pejorative. ETA: In the context of this hypo, it means your decision to include vegan offerings appears progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish any good. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/375 "2023-03-21T19:52:29Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > There are use cases where ‘woke’ doesn’t make sense Yes, as can be seen by most of the allegations by the right. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/376 "2023-03-21T19:57:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > ‘Woke’ is subjective but it still has meaning. It seems to have whatever meaning you want it to have, whenever that meaning is convenient. IE, it means nothing at all. > [@Max\_S](#): > > it means your decision to include vegan offerings appears progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish any good. But its _not_ progressive, and it does my bottom line good. I guess your point is that they are just too _stupid_ to understand words, and that’s their defense against lying? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/377 "2023-03-21T19:57:40Z")
If it helps, consider this analogy. You, “Vegan pizza is a smart idea.” Conservative, “Vegan pizza is a **stupid** idea.” Is one of you necessarily lying? Of course not. There’s a difference of opinion which may or may not be justified. Vegan pizza is neither objectively smart nor objectively stupid because those terms are subjective by definition; the truth of both statements is therefore subjective. Woke as a pejorative doesn’t mean stupid, but it is subjective in the same way that stupid and smart are. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/378 "2023-03-21T20:00:05Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > This conversation has a very George Constanza vibe right now - “It’s not a lie if you believe it!” Were the Moops woke? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/379 "2023-03-21T20:05:42Z")
Yes, but the word here is woke. A much better analogy, one that actually relates to the use of the word, would be: Me, “Vegan pizza is making me a ton of money.” Conservative, “You are being woke for offering vegan pizza.” It’s not a matter of opinion, I am being accused of something, by someone, who has some sort of idea as to what _they think_ that accusation actually means. And what they are saying is simply not true. (Some would call that a lie, but apparently not Republicans.) Anyway, you’ve given your definition, that it means whatever is convenient for it to mean in that moment. I don’t disagree that that is how right wing trolls use it to express their hatred, I am just saying that by using it as a pejorative as it is, it no longer has any sort of substantive meaning. Well, except its original meaning, of course, but we know that’s not what they mean. I think that this conversation has exhausted all useful possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/380 "2023-03-21T20:11:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But its _not_ progressive Irrelevant. Woke means _appears_ progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish good. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > it does my bottom line good. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for society. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > A much better analogy, one that actually relates to the use of the word, would be: > > Me, “Vegan pizza is making me a ton of money.” > Conservative, “You are being woke for offering vegan pizza.” Excellent example. The conservative is not necessarily lying, because their statement is not objectively false, and lying requires saying something which is not true (i.e. false). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Anyway, you’ve given your definition, that it means whatever is convenient for it to mean in that moment. No, I strongly disagree that ‘woke’ means whatever it is convenient for it to mean in the moment. If this is your understanding of my position, you don’t understand my position, or I contradicted myself somewhere and don’t see it even now. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/381 "2023-03-21T20:30:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Irrelevant. Woke means _appears_ progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish good. So, it doesn’t have to actually _be_ progressive to be “woke”. Idiots just have to think it appears to be? And, as you said, “good” is subjective, so they are using _their_ judgement as to what is good, so anything bad is going to be woke. > [@Max\_S](#): > > That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good for society. No one ever said it was, no one said it should be. The only people who would be making any statements that are related to whether or not its good for society would be the people throwing around accusations of “woke”. > [@Max\_S](#): > > The conservative is not necessarily lying, because their statement is not objectively false, and lying requires saying something which is not true (i.e. false). They are claiming to know my intentions. They are either lying about my intentions or claiming that _I_ am lying about my intentions. > [@Max\_S](#): > > No, I strongly disagree that ‘woke’ means whatever it is convenient for it to mean in the moment. If this is your understanding of my position, you don’t understand my position, or I contradicted myself somewhere and don’t see it even now. Then stop saying that it’s subjective, stop saying that it’s accurate to say that someone who makes a business decision is being woke. You’ve contradicted yourself repeatedly, by claiming on one hand that it has a definition, and claiming on the other that the definition is up to the person using it. I’ve pointed it out to you, but you simply move the goalposts again. If you really can’t see the multiple times you’ve contradicted yourself on this, then I was wrong in the last post. This conversation has not _exhausted_ all useful possibilities, it had no possible use from the beginning. All you are saying is that there are idiots out there that will decide that something “appears” progressive, and that they don’t think it’s good, so it’s woke. Nothing about anyone with any sort of critical thinking skills or agency, just stupid hive members responding to the dog whistles of their masters. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/382 "2023-03-21T20:48:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, it doesn’t have to actually _be_ progressive to be “woke”. Right. In fact, if it actually _is_ progressive, it accomplishes societal good and therefore can _not_ be woke, in the pejorative sense. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > they are using _their_ judgement as to what is good, so anything bad is going to be woke. Not just anything “bad”. There are a lot more bad things than there are things which appear progressive but fail to accomplish good. Earlier I posted a list of things that cannot be described as ‘woke’, which you may or may not have read. Here are a few, > [@Max\_S](#): > > - Bad weather > - Traffic jams > - Loud neighbors > - Rival sports teams > - Inflation > - Annoying voices And I know you saw this post, > [@Max\_S](#): > > A gay couple who flies a pride flag at their own house isn’t being ‘woke’ any more than the gold star family who flies a POW flag at their own house. A woman who has an abortion is not being ‘woke’ no matter how much you might disagree with the legality or morality of the matter. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No one ever said it was, no one said it should be. The only people who would be making any statements that are related to whether or not its good for society would be the people throwing around accusations of “woke”. Right again. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > They are claiming to know my intentions. They are either lying about my intentions or claiming that _I_ am lying about my intentions. Not in the hypotheticals you gave me, not with my definition of ‘woke’. Where do these hypothetical conservatives lie about your intentions, or where do they claim that you’re lying about your intentions? They do no such thing. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You’ve contradicted yourself repeatedly, by claiming on one hand that it has a definition, and **claiming on the other that the definition is up to the person using it**. I didn’t make that claim, did I? I gave a definition of ‘woke’, and the conservatives in these hypotheticals stick to my definition, because that’s how I believe conservatives use the pejorative ‘woke’. I’m not saying they stray from my definition when it’s convenient, I’m saying they stick to it. I mean ultimately anybody can say whatever the hell they want with whatever intention they want, but I’m here arguing that by and large conservatives stick to the definition of ‘woke’ I put forward. > [@Max\_S](#): > > This was my definition: > > > My personal experience is that most of the time, when someone uses woke as a pejorative, they mean behavior which, whether misguided or with deceptive intent, appears to be progressive but doesn’t actually accomplish good. > > I should note that when I wrote “progressive” there, I literally meant something that improves society, without the ironic connotations sometimes attached to “progressivism” in America. > [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > Who defines what is “good” in this definition that you have made up? > > Societal good, as in the goal of progressive behavior. If you find uses of ‘woke’ that my definition doesn’t fit, _that’s_ how to effectively counter my position. Go find me conservatives lamenting over “woke inflation” and “woke abortions”. I’ll admit I’m wrong if you can show me that sort of argument. That ‘woke’ is subjective isn’t a contradiction. The subjective part is whether it is an accurate adjective in context, not which definition applies. That’s why I did the [smart/stupid analogy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/377). People can disagree on whether some decision is smart or stupid, and they can disagree on whether something is woke or not. That doesn’t imply that smart, stupid, or woke defy meaningful definition or semantic content. Hope this misunderstanding is cleared up. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=20)