# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/61 "2023-03-16T14:13:10Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Will you be changing your own works after you’re dead ? > > Are you OK with people who have never known you or the times you lived in, decide that what you wrote is offensive and that it needs to be purified ?   Copyright is already too restrictive. I’d prefer seeing works enter the public domain twenty-some years after creation. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/62 "2023-03-16T14:14:07Z")
I’d legitimately have no problem with that. It’s how history works. And if you have to change a couple of paragraphs in something I wrote because the audiences in 2123 mightn’t like it, what that means is _that I’m being read in 2123!_ Go ahead, change a few words, thanks for the follow, future readers of mine! And to say that capitalism has nothing to do with art when you referenced a mans estate who announced some changes in a couple of books as to boost their goodwill (a balance sheet issue) is funny, funny, funny. > **[Dr. Seuss’ Literary Estate Embroiled in ‘Cancel Culture’ Controversy](https://news.wttw.com/2021/03/08/dr-seuss-literary-estate-embroiled-cancel-culture-controversy)** > > The work of the beloved children’s author is at the center of a controversy over racist and stereotypical depictions. Dr. Seuss Enterprises, which manages the author’s legacy, announced that six books would no longer be published because they... ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/63 "2023-03-16T14:21:18Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Copyright is already too restrictive. I’d prefer seeing works enter the public domain twenty-some years after creation. That’d be great, definitely. > [@JohnT](#): > > I’d legitimately have no problem with that. It’s how history works. And if you have to change a couple of paragraphs in something I wrote because the audiences in 2123 mightn’t like it, what that means is _that I’m being read in 2123!_ Go ahead, change a few words, thanks for the follow, future readers of mine! OK, that’s a consistent approach, even if I disagree both in principle, and with your statement that it’s how history works. Perhaps you’ll be fine with the 2123 rewriting of your works. Perhaps the next one will not have a single word in common with what you wrote, but still have your name on it. As far as I’m concerned, sensitivity readers are no better than the right-wing trolls who demand some books be banned because they offend their precious sensibilities. It’s easier to hide, ban, mutilate or destroy what one doesn’t like than to take a step back and think. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/64 "2023-03-16T14:22:43Z")
In 2123, I fully expect to be dead. If my child wants to change my books so she can keep the gravy train rolling, more power to her. I love my child. It’s not like we live in a world without versions. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/65 "2023-03-16T14:23:54Z")
Fair enough. Not all writers feel this way, though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/66 "2023-03-16T14:45:18Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > But that’s unfortunate (the situation, not the fact that you’re right). In an ideal world, all forms of abuse should be addressed. I guess that’s where we differ. I don’t see trans affirming care as child abuse. > [@Moonrise](#): > > I know and I presented it clearly as such. If you find it irrelevant, fair enough. Not completely irrelevant. Just _far_ less relevant than actual citable facts. > [@Moonrise](#): > > What I understood was that he was angry at the people who now refused to hear about his change of mind because it did not fit their interest. Right, he is angry because he has no agency of his own to make his own choices. > [@Moonrise](#): > > Something I deeply object to is the existence of sensitivity readers. Really? It’s just one form of editing. People voluntarily ask for others to read their works to see if there is anything in them that would upset or offend their potential audience. They are not mandatory, they are just looking for feedback from another perspective before they make their work public. It’s no different from a focus group to tell if the newest design of a laundry detergent box label will be more attractive to consumers. > [@Moonrise](#): > > Having (self-proclaimed ?) experts judging what can and what cannot be said and rewriting novels. See, that’s one of the reasons why it’s useful to explain what exactly it is that you have problems with. Now that you know that there is no one " judging what can and what cannot be said and rewriting novels", do you feel differently about that? A little lease unease, maybe? > [@Moonrise](#): > > Wrong, misguided, despicable and above all supremely arrogant. Why not try teaching critical reading of texts instead of mutilating works of art ? I really don’t agree with your opinion that reading something and giving your opinion on how it will be received by your target audience checks _any_ much less all of those boxes, and I have to admit to being curious as to what misinformation you have been exposed to to give you such animosity to a very common and long accepted peer review process? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/67 "2023-03-16T14:47:48Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, sensitivity readers are no better than the right-wing trolls who demand some books be banned because they offend their precious sensibilities. Except that they are _not_ demanding books be banned because they offend their precious sensibilities. That would be the difference that _I_ see. Some may choose not to see that rather distinct difference, and instead insist that they are the same thing. They would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/68 "2023-03-16T14:52:38Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Something I deeply object to is the existence of sensitivity readers. > > Having experts judging what can and what cannot be said and rewriting novels.Why not try teaching critical reading of texts instead of mutilating works of art my bolding > [@JohnT](#): > > n 2123, If my child wants to change my books more power to her john T, you might be fine with people re-writing your books. But your books probably aren’t being taught as English Literature. Great literature is read because it shows us human emotions and human history in context. Shakespeare presents some pretty despicable characters. Let’s cancel him, okay.? And then there’s the classic example which I assume moonrise is referring to-- Huckleberry Finn. Yes it uses shocking language–and that is a GREAT way to teach critical thinking…Have the kids write an essay about how blacks were treated back then, and how Huck dares to be different, and how much times have changed. Don’t censor . Teach. Left wing Wokeness is just as much about censorship as the right wing anti-wokeness is. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/69 "2023-03-16T14:59:38Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Shakespeare presents some pretty despicable characters. Let’s cancel him, okay.? Is that something that has happened? Or is it something you _think_ will happen, based on your feelings about “wokeness”? > [@chappachula](#): > > And then there’s the classic example which I assume moonrise is referring to-- Huckleberry Finn I doubt that was what @moonrise was referring to. What they were most likely referring to is that a small number of YA authors have asked for feedback on their works before publishing them, to see if there is anything that may upset or offend their audience. They do this because they specifically want to market their books towards a LGBTQ audience. With Huck Finn having already been published, it’s unlikely that Twain is seeking out peer review at this point. And is Huck Finn censored or banned? No, it is not. So, once again, something that should allow some to loosen their grip on their pearls. > [@chappachula](#): > > Have the kids write an essay about how blacks were treated back then, and how Huck dares to be different, and how much times have changed. That’s generally what does happen. What is your point here? > [@chappachula](#): > > Left wing Wokeness is just as much about censorship as the right wing anti-wokeness is. Ah, now we get back to the subject of the thread. Could you please _define_ Left wing Wokeness? Please try to use examples of actual left wing acts or arguments, rather than the right wing caricatures that have so far been used in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/70 "2023-03-16T15:00:48Z")
As a Christian, I technically use as my religious guide a book which has been revised by at least 3 councils, written by God knows who (literally), and to which the (multiple) authors original wording (and, possibly, intent) are lost to time. I mean, rewording happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/71 "2023-03-16T15:12:00Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > It’s easier to hide, ban, mutilate or destroy what one doesn’t like than to take a step back and think. (Emphasis added.) To repeat, don’t be so sensitive to what others do with art. If an artist (or whoever owns the rights to it) wants to make changes to their works, that’s their decision. > [@chappachula](#): > > Shakespeare presents some pretty despicable characters. Let’s cancel him, okay.? And then there’s the classic example which I assume moonrise is referring to-- Huckleberry Finn. Yes it uses shocking language–and that is a GREAT way to teach critical thinking…Have the kids write an essay about how blacks were treated back then, and how Huck dares to be different, and how much times have changed. Those works are in the public domain. Anyone can do anything they want with them. That includes teachers. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/72 "2023-03-16T15:14:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Please try to use examples of actual left wing acts or arguments, rather than the right wing caricatures How about In a law school?–where you would hope critical discussion is allowed Law professor asks students to analyze the case of an employee seeking redress because her co-workers called her an n-word and a b-word… But the law school was too woke to teach law,—they censored and fired the professor… > **[UIC law professor says public flashpoint over words used in exam has been...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-uic-law-professor-files-lawsuit-20220217-ogxsiixuxfdmfdfxh6qd4i3p4a-story.html)** > > Professor Jason Kilborn said he hopes his suit could help forge a firm framework of procedures to resolve sensitive matters in academic settings. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/73 "2023-03-16T15:17:42Z")
You literally backtracked from Shakespeare to a single example of a low-rent law school administration, using an article which itself didn’t reveal the controversial question or how it was worded? OK! More context found here: > **[Exam question wasn’t only offensive behavior of UIC law professor, according...](https://www.abajournal.com/web/article/exam-question-wasnt-only-offensive-behavior-of-uic-law-professor-according-to-internal-investigation)** > > The ABA Journal is read by half of the nation's 1 million lawyers every month. It covers the trends, people and finances of the legal profession from Wall Street to Main Street to Pennsylvania Avenue. > [@](#): > > Allegations the office found to be substantiated include Kilborn in a January 2020 lecture dismissing a Black student’s view that his comments were overgeneralizing references to people of color, referring to racial minorities as “cockroaches,” and denouncing their participation in civil rights claims. Additionally, the letter claims Kilborn characterized media stories focused on the negative behaviors of white men as “lynching.” All of the remarks were made in the space of one hour, according to the letter, and Kilborn reportedly acknowledged much of the conduct. It also says he apologized for the lynching reference. > > The OAE letter also claims Kilborn emailed a student who signed BLSA’s December 2020 letter criticizing him, and he wrote that she should not “bite the hand that feeds her.” He denies that allegation. > > Further, the OAE letter addresses Kilborn’s lengthy Zoom call with another student, who signed the BLSA letter, too. Kilborn allegedly accused the student of calling him a liar and articulated a desire to go after people who “come at me.” The call was on Jan. 7, the day after the U.S. Capital riot. According to the OAE letter, public safety concerns across the nation were heightened at the time. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/74 "2023-03-16T15:24:42Z")
How much of the “anti-woke” rhetoric demonizing the term is just playing to a minority comprising the “base” of the right wingers? I haven’t seen this recent poll mentioned here: > **[A GOP war on 'woke'? Most Americans view the term as a positive, USA...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/08/gop-war-woke-most-americans-see-term-positive-ipsos-poll/11417394002/)** > > By 56%-39%, Americans say 'woke' means being aware of social injustice, not being overly politically correct. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/75 "2023-03-16T15:25:43Z")
Have I missed the post(s) where someone on the right actually gives their definition of “woke”? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/76 "2023-03-16T15:33:01Z")
Yeah, that’s how it always seems to play out. It’s kept vague because they know that any examples they give will be shown to be without any merit. They call it “nitpicking”, I call it investigation into a claim. Something that supposedly they were _for_. Until, you know, it turns up things that contradict their narrative. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/77 "2023-03-16T15:44:41Z")
Meanwhile, in the real world, the anti-woke movement claims victim… > **[Nikole Hannah-Jones Denied Tenure at University of North Carolina (Published...](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/business/media/nikole-hannah-jones-unc.html)** > > Her hiring brought a backlash from conservatives concerned about her involvement in The Times Magazine’s 1619 Project, which examined the legacy of slavery in America. … after victim … > **[Some Black Lives Matter Supporters Say Their Stance Got Them Fired](https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5p4qj/some-black-lives-matter-supporters-say-their-stance-got-them-fired)** > > What do a ‘Real Housewife,’ a cop, and a fast food cashier all have in common? They all say they lost their jobs for supporting Black Lives Matter. … after victim: > **[Can you be fired for protesting? In Florida, you can](https://www.tampabay.com/news/2020/06/11/can-you-be-fired-for-protesting-in-florida-you-can/)** > > Social media posts about the protests can lead to termination, too. While literally whining about a trump fanboy who got himself worked up in 2020 and started feeling that his ‘right’ to be an overprivileged asshole was under attack, so he decided to fight back _while at work_. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/78 "2023-03-16T15:52:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not completely irrelevant. Just _far_ less relevant than actual citable facts. Agreed. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, he is angry because he has no agency of his own to make his own choices. No. He’s angry because the people who promised to help him let him down the very second his voluntary change of heart didn’t fit their narrative anymore. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I really don’t agree with your opinion that reading something and giving your opinion on how it will be received by your target audience checks _any_ much less all of those boxes, and I have to admit to being curious as to what misinformation you have been exposed to to give you such animosity to a very common and long accepted peer review process? I don’t have an objection with peer reviewing new literary works before publishing them to ensure that they don’t offend 2023 sensibilities. I do object to people deciding they have the authority to rewrite dead authors’ works. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Except that they are _not_ demanding books be banned because they offend their precious sensibilities. That would be the difference that _I_ see. Banning books and rewriting them is not _exactly_ the same thing, I’ll grant you that. It proceeds however from the same desire to decide what can and what cannot be read, taught and ultimately thought. > [@Pleonast](#): > > To repeat, don’t be so sensitive to what others do with art And why should _my_ sensibilities be ignored\* ? Not being religious, Art is the closest thing I have to sacred. Give me the real deal and let me make up my mind about it. Discussion is more than warmly welcome. Arguments of authority and censorship, soft or hard, not so much. \*Rethorical question, may contain traces of sarcasm. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Those works are in the public domain. Anyone can do anything they want with them. **That includes teachers.** Ouch (bolding mine). Why ? Because students need to be revealed the One and Only Truth ? Give them the real text and teach them how to _think critically_ ! That’s the hill I die on. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/79 "2023-03-16T16:02:02Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > I do object to people deciding they have the authority to rewrite dead authors’ works. I may suggest that your problem be better solved with a lawyer because the right to produce derivative works falls to the copyright holder(s): > [@](#): > > ## What rights does copyright provide? > > **U.S. copyright law provides copyright owners with the following exclusive rights:** > > - Reproduce the work in copies or [phonorecords](https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html). > - **Prepare derivative works based upon the work.** > - Distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership or by rental, lease, or lending. > - Perform the work publicly if it is a literary, musical, dramatic, or choreographic work; a [pantomime](https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ52.pdf); or a motion picture or other audiovisual work. > - Display the work publicly if it is a literary, musical, dramatic, or choreographic work; a pantomime; or a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work. This right also applies to the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work. > - Perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission if the work is a sound recording. > **[What is Copyright? | U.S. Copyright Office](https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/#:~:text=U.S.%20copyright%20law%20provides%20copyright,rental%2C%20lease%2C%20or%20lending)** > > Copyright is a type of intellectual property that protects original works of authorship as soon as an author fixes the work in a tangible form of expression. In copyright law, there are a lot of different types of works, including paintings,... Not too sure who you would sue or where you can argue standing, but that goes to my first sentence… ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/80 "2023-03-16T16:13:30Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > To repeat, don’t be so sensitive to what others do with art > > And why should _my_ sensibilities be ignored\* ? The whole point of free speech is that everybody gets to talk and nobody has to listen. You can go make and partake of the art you want to. And you can tell us your preferences in doing so. And other people can make and partake of the art they want to. And then tell you what their preferences are in doing so. > [@Moonrise](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > Those works are in the public domain. Anyone can do anything they want with them. **That includes teachers.** > > Ouch (bolding mine). > > Why ? Because students need to be revealed the One and Only Truth ? Give them the real text and teach them how to _think critically_ ! That’s the hill I die on. Why? Because teachers have the expertise to decide what pedagogy works best for their own students. > [@JohnT](#): > > > [@Moonrise](#): > > > > I do object to people deciding they have the authority to rewrite dead authors’ works. > > I may suggest that your problem be better solved with a lawyer because the right to produce derivative works falls to the copyright holder(s): Yeah, a lot of complaints about publishing (or not) and editing (or not) are based on our copyright system. Which, in mine opinion, is far too restrictive for the public good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=5)