# Defining "woke" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220 "2023-03-15T14:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/101 "2023-03-16T19:11:07Z")
Worse, Roald Dahl and Ian Fleming’s books being **republished** in alternate versions is an example of censorship coming from the **left** how exactly??? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/102 "2023-03-16T19:12:50Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > It doesn’t make sense to you because I used the words incorrectly. > > He identified as male, dressed as a man, and had taken hormones, which had had an effect on his voice. But he became hesitant when the prospect of surgery came up, and didn’t go through with it. He was also attracted to men only, prompting me to joke that he sure had not made things easy for himself. > > … > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Does it mean that some trans people denied the possibility of detransitioning in something vaguely akin to how some gay people deny the possibility of bisexuality, and acted like real assholes to him? > > This was his version. I confess I’m still confused, because: 1. It seems pretty common to me for trans folk not to go for surgery, and literally (before now) unheard of to me for other trans folk to call them a traitor for forgoing surgery; and 2. I’ve also never ever heard anyone refer to “forgoing surgery” as “detransitioning,” when someone still identifies as the gender they were not assigned at birth. Are you sure you have the story right? If you do, that sounds like a pretty niche group of trans friends, unless I’m super out of touch, who would tell a dude he’s detransitioning and also that detransitioning isn’t a thing, just because he doesn’t get a mastectomy. But sure, I can posit that this way-out-there group exists. I certainly admit that there are trans folk who are assholes, just like there are other humans who are assholes, of every shape color creed and identity. But the problem comes when there’s an association made: assholes exist in this identity, therefore we should talk about the identity, or posit some social movement associated with the identity and declare it taboo. Nope. That’s super gross. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/103 "2023-03-16T19:18:25Z")
And, what that story has to do with woke is beyond me. Taking the story at face value, it doesn’t seem very woke to shun a transman because he doesn’t want surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/104 "2023-03-16T19:21:21Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > It doesn’t make sense to you because I used the words incorrectly. > > He identified as male, dressed as a man, and had taken hormones, which had had an effect on his voice. But he became hesitant when the prospect of surgery came up, and didn’t go through with it. So he was viewed as a “traitor” for not taking specific surgical interventions? As a trans_masc_ person? Sorry, but I don’t buy that at all. This guy wasn’t telling you the whole story. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/105 "2023-03-16T19:30:21Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > He identified as male, dressed as a man, and had taken hormones, which had had an effect on his voice. But he became hesitant when the prospect of surgery came up, and didn’t go through with it. A lot of people don’t. Bottom surgery is very involved, complicated, and we don’t have the technology to do a very good job of it. But, not getting bottom surgery isn’t the same thing as de-transitioning, which is what you were saying. And he _didn’t_ detransition at all, in fact, so whatever happened between him and his group had nothing to do with it. I’m really confused on your anecdote, and the story keeps changing. Either he was telling stories, or you are badly misremembering and filling in the gaps. Either way, it really sounds like it’s not really useful for any purpose. Well, except for confirming the prejudices of TERFs and other anti-trans hate groups. > [@Moonrise](#): > > The law says they can, so they can from a legal point of view. I just don’t think that they can make that call from an artistic point of view. So, it’s purely an aesthetic choice on your part. You don’t like that copyright holders make changes to their properties, just the same as those copyright holders don’t like how some of those properties come across contemporarily. > [@Moonrise](#): > > That’s 100% on you. So, when you said > [@Moonrise](#): > > Banning books and rewriting them is not _exactly_ the same thing, I’ll grant you that. It was just random words, not meaning anything at all? You were not implying that the Left was rewriting books? I guess that it _is_ 100% on me that I read your words and assumed you meant to write them. > [@Moonrise](#): > > Roald Dahl and Ian Fleming’s books have recently been republished in alternate versions. Ah, is this another example of you misusing words? You admit that you were using the word detransition incorrectly. I assume now you will admit that you are using the word censorship incorrectly? Misusing words seems to be a habit of yours. > [@Moonrise](#): > > Sorry, I noticed that you replied in my name, something that seems to be a habit of yours, but I still wanted to confirm this myself. And for the record, we also talked about _my_ more mundane relationship issues. “Replied in my name”? I don’t think I understand what you mean by that. You claim it to be a “habit”, but I don’t have any idea what it is that you are talking about. Apparently, this is something that offends you, so could you please explain it so that I do not do this again? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/106 "2023-03-16T22:27:32Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Something I deeply object to is the existence of sensitivity readers. > > Having (self-proclaimed ?) experts judging what can and what cannot be said and rewriting novels. Wrong, misguided, despicable and above all supremely arrogant. Why not try teaching critical reading of texts instead of mutilating works of art ? …can you explain to us, precisely, what it is that you think a sensitivity reader does? Because what you’ve described here doesn’t _remotely_ match the job description of a sensitivity reader. Citations would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/107 "2023-03-16T23:01:26Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > And, what that story has to do with woke is beyond me. I suppose _one_ of the myriad things folded into the weaponized term “woke” is a supposed aggressively-enforced dogma that the trans experience must be only ever celebrated never questioned or regretted or given second thoughts and Og help you if you even hint otherwise. Which is a distortion of what support and affirmation are about. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/108 "2023-03-17T02:11:59Z")
It appears the controversy here stems from a confusion between the terms “rewriting” and “editing”. Also, note that an author who felt that strongly about it could easily specify in their will that no posthumous editing would be permitted. Oddly, almost all of them make the choice calculated to keep their books in print and their descendants solvent. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/109 "2023-03-17T02:52:00Z")
Complaining about stuff being “woke” is simply a performance from people so privileged that the mere suggestion of accommodating others, in even the smallest manner, triggers a persecution complex. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/110 "2023-03-17T05:11:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …can you explain to us, precisely, what it is that you think a sensitivity reader does? I’m not going to side with anyone here, but just offer another opinion. As far as “sensitivity reader” goes, there’s a description here: > **[Sensitivity reader](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_reader)** > > A sensitivity reader is someone who reads a literary work, looking for perceived offensive content, stereotypes and bias, creating a report for an author or publisher with suggested changes. The use of sensitivity readers has attracted controversy from authors and the public, particularly with respect to edits to re-editions of previously published works of literature. > Proponents state "the literary quality of a work is substantially improved" when reviewed and copy-edited by others from "a sp... It is, unsurprisingly, controversial, and has been widely criticized. In some cases the reaction to criticism was to publish the originals in parallel with the edited versions. I was surprised to see that the entire James Bond series was edited to remove references to race judged to be offensive. My own view on this is that much depends on the age group of the book’s intended audience. Books intended for young readers whose minds are very much in the impressionable formative stages need to have their contents curated much more carefully than books for adults who are unlikely to change their world-view because of what some character does in a work of fiction. As as example, when I was a kid I read many of the _Hardy Boys_ books. The originals dated way back to 1927 and the years thereafter, and were substantially revised circa 1960s. Partly this was to modernize them, but also to remove racial and other undesirable characterizations. I never read the originals, but it turns out that Applewood Books specializes in publishing replicas of historically interesting books like these. I bought maybe half a dozen of them a few years ago solely out of curiosity about the originals. Reading these old kids’ books was fun. I concluded that this was an example of well-justified revision, mainly because of the age of the target audience. It wasn’t just racial attitudes that needed to be excised, either. In the originals, the Bayport police chief and his sidekick detective were both pompous and incompetent and considered themselves in competition with the invariably more successful Hardy Boys. This is not an image of law enforcement that one wants to drill into impressionable young minds. In the rewrites, Chief Collig became eminently respectable and his relationship with the boys was friendly and collaborative. And of course, racial stereotypes disappeared. It was all to the good, for a young target audience. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/111 "2023-03-17T05:58:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > This is not an image of law enforcement that one wants to drill into impressionable young minds. What, drilling in fantasy flattering views of law enforcement is _better_? In this day and age? Naah, “pompous and incompetent” didn’t go _far enough_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/112 "2023-03-17T06:07:56Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > As far as “sensitivity reader” goes, there’s a description here: Did you think he was asking for a definition of “sensitivity reader” because he didn’t know what one was? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/113 "2023-03-17T06:15:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did you think he was asking for a definition of “sensitivity reader” because he didn’t know what one was?   No, I do not, nor do I understand the basis of this seemingly hostile interpretation of my post. I was trying to make a constructive contribution by providing an objective reference point, and just using the quote (and a cite for the general audience) as an introduction. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/114 "2023-03-17T06:33:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It is, unsurprisingly, controversial, and has been **widely criticized.** …but everything “woke” gets criticized. Which is why here, in the “defining woke” thread here in Great Debates, it’s been criticized, and why there has been an edit war over on the edit page, all over the last couple of months. The controversy section on wiki isn’t really about sensitivity readers at all. They were about decisions made by the _publishers_ of the book. It wasn’t “(self-proclaimed ?) experts judging what can and what cannot be said and rewriting novels.” It was (in the first instance) a company that was _commissioned_ to do so, and we don’t know the circumstances around the latter. You are free to “teach critical reading of texts” if you want too. And if you are the publisher or the copyright holder or the author of a book, you are also _allowed_ to consult a sensitivity reader if you so wish. And doing so isn’t “mutilating works of art.” ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/115 "2023-03-17T06:59:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > This is not an image of law enforcement that one wants to drill into impressionable young minds. > > What, drilling in fantasy flattering views of law enforcement is _better_? In this day and age? Naah, “pompous and incompetent” didn’t go _far enough_. My intial immediate response to this was going to be along the lines of “all joking aside, we need to teach our kids respect for our institutions, and if our institutions don’t live up to those ideals, then it’s the institutions we need to change, not what the kids are taught”. But then I thought about the powerful book _Between the World and Me_, by Ta-Nehisi Coates: > **[Between the World and Me](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_the_World_and_Me)** > > Between the World and Me is a 2015 nonfiction book written by American author Ta-Nehisi Coates and published by Spiegel & Grau. It was written by Coates as a letter to his then-teenage son about his perception of what the feelings, symbolism, and realities associated with being Black in the United States are. Coates recapitulates American history and explains to his son "racist violence that has been woven into American culture." Coates draws from an abridged, autobiographical account of his y... My first instinct was, in a sense, ultimately true, but we’re still very much in a transition period that prevents it from being universally true. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/116 "2023-03-17T09:10:10Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > all joking aside, we need to teach our kids respect for our institutions, and if our institutions don’t live up to those ideals, then it’s the institutions we need to change, not what the kids are taught No. We need to raise realists, not fantasists. By all means talk to kids _about_ ideals, or even better, _real-world examples_ of how things are done better elsewhere - places with better policing, or health care, or political systems, or whatever. But _respecting_ an institution because of what it _could be_? Nope, that’s a recipe for disaster. Especially, but not only, for POCs and other minorities. It’s the kind of trap that leads to a bullet in your head or a knee in your throat. And this isn’t a “transition period”. White supremacy and its uniformed goons aren’t going anywhere in a hurry. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/117 "2023-03-17T09:24:26Z")
Sorry, I won’t have the time, or the energy, to reply to all the posts above. Just a few points. I regret bringing up the trans anecdote I had. I thought it was relevant to the thread, but as some of you have pointed out, I only got to hear one side of the story. Plus, as I knew, it was just a data point that relied on me having perfectly understood him and you taking my word for it. As for examples of attempts at imposing bans coming from the left, there’s [this.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Congo#Attempts_to_ban_or_restrict_access_to_the_book) Most importantly, since this thread is about defining “woke” and several posters have criticized me for not doing so, I’ll venture an attempt. Woke is to liberalism as the extreme-right is to conservatism. Liberalism is about not only affirming, but striving to achieve equality between members of society, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, diet, creed, wealth, etc. It is rooted in facts and reason, critical thinking, peaceful coexistence, inclusivity and ultimately compassion and love for all humans. Its main tools are education and free access to information. Wokeness seems to me to be about imposing minority views to the rest of society. It is based on “feelings” and passion, blind adherence to a strict with-us-or-against-us worldview, conflict, exclusion and ultimately hatred for the Other. Its main tools are banning, rewriting and hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/118 "2023-03-17T09:34:09Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > As for examples of attempts at imposing bans coming from the left, there’s [this.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Congo#Attempts_to_ban_or_restrict_access_to_the_book) …can you explain exactly what it is you take issue with here, and what that has to do with “woke?” > [@Moonrise](#): > > Woke is to liberalism as the extreme-right is to conservatism. > > Liberalism is about not only affirming, but striving to achieve equality between members of society, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, diet, creed, wealth, etc. It is rooted in facts and reason, critical thinking, peaceful coexistence, inclusivity and ultimately compassion and love for all humans. Its main tools are education and free access to information. > > Wokeness seems to me to be about imposing minority views to the rest of society. It is based on “feelings” and passion, blind adherence to a strict with-us-or-against-us worldview, conflict, exclusion and ultimately hatred for the Other. Its main tools are banning, rewriting and hiding. I mean, this is what woke means. “aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)” > **[Definition of WOKE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke)** > > aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice) —often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action…... “having or marked by an active awareness of systemic injustices and prejudices, especially those involving the treatment of ethnic, racial, or sexual minorities:” > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/woke)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! [aware](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/aware), [especially](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/especially) of [social](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/social) [problems](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/problem) such as [racism](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism) and [inequality](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inequality): > **[woke](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/woke)** > > 1. past simple of wake 2. aware, especially of social problems such as racism… Its pretty consistent across the board. Woke means awareness of social problems. It ws born out of AAVE. Its been used for decades. Where did your definition come from? How did you decide it was about “imposing minority views to the rest of society?” Why would you think that its main tools are “banning, rewriting and hiding?” Did you just make that definition up? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/119 "2023-03-17T09:38:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Did you just make that definition up? …and just further to this: aren’t you “rewriting” the definition of woke? Don’t you hold a minority view and are trying to impose your definition on the rest of us here on the society of the Straight Dope? Are you, by the definition you have used here, woke? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2023, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220/120 "2023-03-17T09:47:22Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > As for examples of attempts at imposing bans coming from the left, there’s [this.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Congo#Attempts_to_ban_or_restrict_access_to_the_book) How do you know the political leanings of Mondondo or Enright ? > [@Moonrise](#): > > Woke is to liberalism as the extreme-right is to conservatism. Well, I’m not a liberal, so is it OK for me to stay woke? Also, what’s wrong with feelings and passion? And what was the purpose of sneer-quoting “feelings”? Do you think woke people don’t have real feelings? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defining-woke/981220.md?page=7)