If I make a decision based on what I think is best for my own needs
I don’t care about societal good, I care about my bottom line. People said that they wanted vegan options, so I added them to the menu. I make more money now than I did because of that decision.
You haven’t explained how that is any different than adding pepperoni pizza to the menu, except in how some particular right wing trolls will respond to it.
Yeah, I’m sure it will be “lighthearted”. But, so what I am getting from you is that people who use the definition of “woke” the way that you are saying it should be used are liars who are full of hatred? We already knew that. The question is whether we should allow deceptive people with ill intent to have as much control over the language.
Since when are conservatives against businesses responding to the demands of their customers?
You don’t care, but ‘woke’ v not-woke does. You don’t have to care whether you’re being ‘woke’ or not. Not all pejorative uses of ‘woke’ are equally strong, and vegan offerings at a pizza place is real low.
I’m not saying that at all. Sure, there’s manufactured outrage - that’s what it would be if someone complained about a ‘woke’ restaurant simply because it has vegan offerings. Manufactured outrage is recreational. Hatred is a wholly different beast.
Omg, Max, do you not see how you’re making this up as you go along?
Pizzerias have been offering vegetable pizzas for as long as I’ve been alive. And here you are calling my Dad’s girlfriends from 1978 ‘woke’ because they didn’t like his Supreme pizzas from Pizza Hut.
You don’t have to care about being woke in order to be accused of being woke.
Okay, so do you think that updating some language in James and the Giant Peach is woke? Do you think that the IP owners cared about being woke, or did they just care about the bottom line?
That’s the content of 95% of accusations of “woke”. That’s what the person in the OP calls woke.
The hatred is the motivation for the lying and the perjoratives.
Heh, you’re right. They’ve never been for businesses responding to the demands of their customers. Only the demands of white supremacists. For a while, longer than it should have been, those were mostly one and the same. The whole meltdown of the far right is that the needs of others are being considered, and not just that of the privileged.
This is k9bfriender’s hypothetical, which I was asked to judge. And it’s vegan, not vegetarian. No cheese, or I guess special vegan cheese if that’s a thing.
Are the people flying the Confederate flag claiming to be actual Confederates?
Are the Confederate statues in question only on the grounds owned by the people in the statues, or at least only on grounds owned by their direct descendents?
Are children who have gay people within their immediate families allowed to have children’s media depicting same sex couples? How about if the gay person within their immediate family is themselves? (The gender affirming care can’t very well be anyone other than themselves. Not to mention that we’re all drowning in “gender affirming care” – down to segregated toy aisles, and segregated clothing sections even for children too young to require clothing shaped for post-pubertal bodies.)
– the dividing line’s got nothing to do with whose land it’s on. It’s got to do with whether it’s perceived as “liberal.”
But most of the behavior you’re listing does actually accomplish good.
You need to rephrase the second part of your definition into either “behavior which I think isn’t accomplishing good” or at least “behavior which the people using this definition claim isn’t accomplishing good, whether because they think it isn’t accomplishing anything or because they disagree about what’s ‘good’.”
What if the pepperoni’s made by a local butcher using pasture-raised pork from a local farm (presuming that those things are actually true)?
And what if that’s still because people are asking for it?
Why on earth would it not be a societal good for people to be able to get what they want to eat?
Or are you somehow arguing that we’d have a better society if no restaurants, or presumably groceries, offered any choice of menu, and everybody had to eat the same things? If so, why would that be preferable?
But you say that conservatives will “lightheartedly” lie about my reasons for putting vegan options on my menu. How is that in good faith? What is their motivation for lying?
I’m in favor of fighting fire with fire. We won’t ever win over the truly hateful people, but we can at least convince those people who get confused by propaganda to swing to the left. I think the American flag in particular would be a good choice to use when faced with those who use “alternative” flags like the Confederate flag or Gadsden flag. The idea would be something like “I fly the American flag because I’m a true American. Why are you flying those other flags? Are you not a patriotic American?”
In this case I think using a character from popular culture would be helpful. Turn it around and say something like “What we want is to rid the force of Eric Cartmans. Being a police officer should be about protecting and serving, not demanding that others respect your authority.”
Good and bad are subjective concepts. I think it’s right and proper for it to stay that way in a dictionary-style definition. What will actually happen in conversation is, a conservative will say something is woke, and you’ll disagree, because the two of you have underlying differences in whether the thing being discussed actually accomplishes good.
Compare, “That coat is expensive.” It is implied that the speaker believes the coat is expensive, it may not necessarily be true that you agree since you may have a different underlying threshold for what is or isn’t expensive.
There’s a cost involved in providing that access, which may or may not be justified.
While that is true, some of the time, hatred is a feeling one has towards others and therefore (like all feelings) is not something that can be dictated by the recipient.
No, I did no such thing. I never said anything about lying. Manufactured outrage can be and usually is an overreaction, it doesn’t have to be lying or made from whole cloth.
You just keep circling back around to the definition of “woke” that it is something that conservatives don’t like.
And no one here disagrees with that. It’s utterly meaningless when spat from the lips of a right winger, it just conveys their hatred. That’s all it means and all it will ever mean to them, hate.
I’m not circling back to that, at least not intentionally. I never held that position. I disagree with that definition. Do you think I contradicted myself with this? I don’t see any contradiction.
I think it is because the right uses the term as a social ill that must be curtailed through the use of state enforcement and the loss of individual,liberties, but they cannot define what it is they are trying to eradicate. This lack of definition means that the right can manipulate the term to mobilize violent bigots to harass a wide variety of Americans while distracting these violent bigots from their real agenda. It is a classic tactic of fascists.
This may need a different thread, but I define lying as saying something as if it were true that is not true. You seem to have a different definition.
Well, except when it is, as it would be in your example of a conservative publication that “lightheartedly” laments that my restaurant is woke because I serve vegan options.
‘Woke’, like good and bad, is subjective. It is not a matter of fact. Conservatives can call you woke when you don’t think you are woke, and nobody is necessarily lying.
(Being subjective doesn’t mean ‘woke’ is without form or meaningless either. There are uses of ‘woke’ that don’t work, which I posted a list of.)
So, one says it is good, the other says it isn’t good. One doesn’t say it’s woke, the other says it’s woke.
The difference, the one saying its woke doesn’t think it’s good. This is very easy to follow.
I don’t see how you can’t see any contradiction, but then, you also don’t see how saying things that are not true is a lie. So, I’m not sure if your definition of the word “contradiction” is useful here either.
