# Definition of "arms" in context of Secomd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734 "2013-01-19T18:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Crepitus\_Fremitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@Crepitus\_Fremitus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crepitus_Fremitus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/1 "2013-01-19T18:57:21Z")
“Arms” in and of itself could refer to anything from a sharp stick to a nuclear warhead. Yet in the context of discussions invoking Second Amendment rights, “arms” seems to apply more narrowly only to (and please correct me if I’m wrong) hand held non fully automatic firearms. Can anyone explain why that limited sense of the word, or point me toward a good reference? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/2 "2013-01-19T19:47:28Z")
Start reading the debates of the Founding Fathers about the issue. It’s clear from their discussions that they were concerned with the necessary arms to field effective militias. ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/3 "2013-01-19T20:25:36Z")
A right to bear arms is bad. A right to cat paws is better. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/4 "2013-01-19T20:32:17Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Start reading the debates of the Founding Fathers about the issue. It’s clear from their discussions that they were concerned with the necessary arms to field effective militias. Which would be…? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/5 "2013-01-19T20:57:43Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Start reading the debates of the Founding Fathers about the issue. It’s clear from their discussions that they were concerned with the necessary arms to field effective militias. Right. And it makes sense that the arms that would be _kept_ (stored and maintained) and _borne_ (carried and employed) by citizens would be the individually-served infantry weapons of the day. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/6 "2013-01-19T21:26:53Z")
Not to mention that they did not have automatic rifles in those days. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/7 "2013-01-19T21:39:38Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Not to mention that they did not have automatic rifles in those days. No, but they carried the same type of personal weapons as the millitary of the time did. I don’t think anyone is advocating for private citizens to have access to the big stuff ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/8 "2013-01-19T21:42:09Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > No, but they carried the same type of personal weapons as the millitary of the time did. > > I don’t think anyone is advocating for private citizens to have access to the big stuff No, but the OP is asking what is included and what is not, and “the big stuff” is rather vague an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/9 "2013-01-19T21:47:37Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/10 "2013-01-19T21:59:25Z")
A militia is not an army, it is more like a police force/posse, therefore, one might infer that, based on the language, your personal right to weaponry is based on what might be appropriate for that sort of application. ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/11 "2013-01-19T22:24:06Z")
The best definition is found in wikipedia’s article on the second amendment, specifically, the section about United States v. Miller ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Amendment\_to\_the\_United\_States\_Constitution#United\_States\_v.\_Miller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#United_States_v._Miller)) ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/12 "2013-01-19T22:31:37Z")
The best definition is found in wikipedia’s article on the second amendment, specifically, the section about Disctrict of Columbia v. Heller ([Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#District_of_Columbia_v._Heller)) Basically, they stated that the second amendment did not refer to “the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons”. _Mod: please delete my previous post. I accidentally submitted it before it was complete, and the edit window closed before I could finish composing my actual response._ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/13 "2013-01-19T22:53:36Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Start reading the debates of the Founding Fathers about the issue. It’s clear from their discussions that they were concerned with the necessary arms to field effective militias. That doesn’t seem likely. If you followed that line of reasoning, you’d think that the Second Amendment gives you the right to own a cannon but not the right to own a 9mm. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/14 "2013-01-19T22:55:25Z")
I’d really love to hear an NRA spokesperson discuss how he draws the line limiting permissible weapons. He can begin with his “right” to store a nuclear warhead in his garage. Or a streak of hungry tigers. In my opinion, since the Founding Fathers - who actually wrote the 2nd Amendment - fought with muskets, I’d be happy drawing the line there. ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/15 "2013-01-19T22:57:34Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’d really love to hear an NRA spokesperson discuss how he draws the line limiting permissible weapons. He can begin with his “right” to store a nuclear warhead in his garage. Or a streak of hungry tigers. > > In my opinion, since the Founding Fathers - who actually wrote the 2nd Amendment - fought with muskets, I’d be happy drawing the line there. Yes, they were muskets, but they were also the most technologically advanced firearms at the time and also what the military used. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/16 "2013-01-19T22:58:30Z")
> [@For You](#): > > A militia is not an army, it is more like a police force/posse, therefore, one might infer that, based on the language, your personal right to weaponry is based on what might be appropriate for that sort of application. How so? Can you give examples of the militia being used for law enforcement purposes? They might occasionally have been used as the equivalent of riot police but I’d argue that’s more a case of the police functioning as an extension of the military rather than the military functioning as an extension of the police. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/17 "2013-01-19T23:00:56Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’d really love to hear an NRA spokesperson discuss how he draws the line limiting permissible weapons. He can begin with his “right” to store a nuclear warhead in his garage. Or a streak of hungry tigers. IANA NRA member or spokesman, but the ‘line’ is pretty easy to draw. An ‘arm’, in context, is a gun. Guns require directed fire. That is, you need to aim at what you want to hit. A nuclear weapon (or a hand grenade, or a Claymore mine, or an artillery piece) is an ‘area weapon’ where you just have to be close. Tigers are not ‘arms’. ---
**Author:** ![SpeedwayRyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@SpeedwayRyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeedwayRyan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/18 "2013-01-19T23:01:45Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > In my opinion, since the Founding Fathers - who actually wrote the 2nd Amendment - fought with muskets, I’d be happy drawing the line there. They didn’t have television or the Internet back then either, but luckily your right to free speech extends beyond the technology of the 1700s and applies to those media. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/19 "2013-01-19T23:03:56Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Basically, they stated that the second amendment did not refer to “the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons”.\* Wouldn’t weapons be dangerous by definition? Unless they were considering the possibility of nerf bats or water pistols. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734/20 "2013-01-19T23:06:10Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > In my opinion, since the Founding Fathers - who actually wrote the 2nd Amendment - fought with muskets, I’d be happy drawing the line there. And this argument right here is, I suspect, _exactly_ the reason the founding fathers wrote “arms”, not “muskets”. Unsurprisingly, the founding fathers were perfectly aware that the nature of “arms” had been constantly evolving and improving over the entire course of human history, and realized that, in the future, there would be personal weapons that improved upon the muskets of the day. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definition-of-arms-in-context-of-secomd-amendment/647734.md?page=2)