# Definitive work as chronicle of Arthurian Legend **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2004, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135 "2004-01-26T10:58:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/1 "2004-01-26T10:58:20Z")
I’m familiar with bits and pieces or the Arthur Legends. The Holy Grail, The Lady of the Lake, Lancelot and Guenevere, etc. I am under the impression (please note: my impression may very well be wrong, correct me if I don’t have things correct) that these are tales that had been passed down over many years, like the tales that the Brothers Grimm collected and for which they wrote the definitive work. Is there a definitive work of the Athurian Legends? Or, perhaps, am I wrong about the origins and do the stories come from one original source? Whatever the case may be, where do I go to read all about King Arthur and his buddies? I am not looking for some stale scholarly account, I want to read it as a story written for entertainment with style. . ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/2 "2004-01-26T12:09:24Z")
Sir Thomas Mallory’s Le Morte de Arthur is the basic Arthur book tho there were prior sources. Howard Pyle wrote a children’s adaptation (I think titled King Arthur & the Knights of the Round Table). John Steinbeck even did a book on Arthur. I read a really good novel years ago Arthur Rex by I think Thomas Berger. For a decent condensation, I recommend the film Exclalibur, tho inaccurate in parts and set too late in history, it still gives a good intro & feel for the lore. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/3 "2004-01-26T12:17:11Z")
Btw~ [http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4186/Arthur/htmlpages/kingarthur.html](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4186/Arthur/htmlpages/kingarthur.html) ~ I also forgot to mention T.H. White’s The Once & Future King books, tho I will admit to not having read them. ---
**Author:** ![Caprese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9a28c/32.png) [@Caprese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caprese)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/4 "2004-01-26T12:48:55Z")
Berger’s book is good, T.H.White’s is a favorite. Have also enjoyed Whyte’s Camulod Chronicles, though they bog down a bit as time goes on. But my favorite Arthurian series by far, whose work is my standard for judging such tales, is the **Mary Stewart** trilogy: _The Crystal Cave_, _The Hollow Hills_, and _The Last Enchantment_. The stories are told from the point of view of Merlin. Stewart’s writing is vivid, her characters real human beings–and the magic is there. A fourth book, _The Wicked Day_, is told from Mordred’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/5 "2004-01-26T13:24:44Z")
_Mists of Avalon_, by Marion Zimmer-Bradley, is told from Morgaine’s view. It’s a look from the Druid side, and how Christianity basically drove Avalon into the mists. It’s very good. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/6 "2004-01-26T13:26:31Z")
My favorite are the Mary Stewart trilogy. However, I cannot vouch for the accuracy, because they comprise most of the books that I have read about Arthur. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/7 "2004-01-26T13:29:01Z")
**Le Morte de Arthur** is the closest thing you’ll find to a primary source in a bookstore. **The Once and Future King** is a fantasy interpretation. I’ve read them both and neither was particularly entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Caprese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9a28c/32.png) [@Caprese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caprese)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/8 "2004-01-26T14:46:59Z")
Arthurian scholar Geoffrey Ashe has some interesting things to say about the “real” Arthur. [www.britannia.com/history/arthur1.html](http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/9 "2004-01-26T15:30:02Z")
I’m going to be slightly pedantic and say that there is no “definitive” source that chronicles all of Arthurian legend effectively… though some do better than others. One of the real strengths of Arthurian legend – and any good mythology – is that it can be added to and built upon as time passes. _All_ of the examples listed in this thread are excellent ones (Jack Whyte’s series, the Mary Stewart books, and Bradley’s _Mists of Avalon_ are some of my personal favorites), but they are all examples of how the legend has been enhanced by each person who puts energy into it. Whyte puts greater detail into the events leading up to Arthur’s reign, spending a lot of time on the history of a Britain recently abandoned by the Roman occupation and putting aside the magical/mystical elements of the story. In his series, we don’t even really meet Arthur until (I think) the fourth book, and then he is a baby. Mary Stewart’s books flesh out Merlyn’s story in the legend, and include a great deal of magic. Marion Zimmer Bradley focused more on the women in the story – not just Morgaine (Morgan) but Morgause and Guinevere as well – and balanced history and magic nicely. Even Malory’s version, one of the earliest known incorporating many of the accepted facets of the story, expanded quite a bit on the “original” source material. Steinbeck’s version was essentially a re-writing of Malory, putting it in slightly more modern language and going back to pre-Malory sources. Steinbeck unfortunately never finished it; he died before it was complete, after working on it for many years. Some of the other “old” sources you might like to look at are Chretien de Troyes’ [Arthurian Romances](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140445218/qid=1075128404/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4299712-2004662?v=glance&s=books), and the somewhat controversial [History of the Kings of Britain](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140441700/qid=1075129289/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4299712-2004662?v=glance&s=books) by Geoffery of Monmouth. The latter may have been one of Malory’s sources (it pre-dates Malory’s work), but its history is, shall we say, questionable. Still, worth reading if you’re interested. Anyway, the point is that almost every version of Arthurian legend will add to the story in important ways. Malory’s version is the most “traditional” of them, but it largely focuses on the men in the story and ignores the women. Also, many of the favorite characters (Merlyn, for example) are given somewhat short shrift, which other writers have done excellent work in filling in. If I may recommend a couple other favorites of mine (I’ve read a great deal of Arthurian legend, both “fiction” and “non-fiction” – the line between them blurs somewhat), Diana Paxson’s [Hallowed Isle](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-titleid=343832&ve-field=none/qid=1075129692/sr=12-1/103-4299712-2004662) series, consisting of four relatively short books, is one of the best re-tellings of Arthurian legend attempted by a modern author. Each book takes on the perspective of a different culture in Britain at the time of Arthur’s reign, while the story moves on through them all as the unifying thread. The characters are both familiar and fresh, and the books are a valuable addition to any Arthurian buff’s library. Also, Bernard Cornwell’s three-book [Warlord Chronicles](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312156960/qid=1075129906/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4299712-2004662?v=glance&s=books) (the linked book is the first in the series) is a sharp and original take on the history behind the Arthurian story. Though the story lacks the romance and magic of many of the popular Arthurian works, I get the feeling from other things I’ve read that, if Arthur ever existed, Cornwell’s version, with its unfliching realism, would be a more accurate version of the story than most of the others. I also loved the portrayal of Guinevere in this one; she is a much more complex character than any other version of the story, including some I’ve read which focus on her. And **Caprese** has already mentioned my favorite Arthurian scholar (one of the few worth reading, in my opinion), Geoffery Ashe. Almost any of his books are worth having a look at for the historical perspective, with [The Discovery of King Arthur](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805001158/qid=1075130927/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4299712-2004662?v=glance&s=books) being perhaps the best one. Well, there you have it… a true Arthurian Geek’s perspective, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/10 "2004-01-26T15:40:06Z")
Ashe is odd in that he totally switched gears, originally believing Arthur existed when/where he’s traditionally been placed (early 6th century England) but now insisting he was one with [Riothamus](http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/origins/riothamu.html). I also like the works of Leslie Alcock. There is definitely a **definitive** [reference work](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0815323034/qid=1075131237//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/002-0711434-1192052?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) on Arthurian legendry which is edited by Ashe and Lacy and covers chroniclers and storytellers from St. Gildas to [First Knight](http://imdb.com/title/tt0113071/) . It’s a bit pricey, but most public libraries of any size have it and you can usually find it used on e-bay or [half.com](http://half.com). There’s also an incredible web resource called [The Camelot Project](http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/cphome.stm) through the University of Rochester which reproduces all of the primary sources and also features interviews with modern scholars (Ashe, Alcock) authors (M.Z. Bradley, Lawhead, etc.) as well as movie reviews and artworks. It’s essentially a [Perseus Project](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/) for Arthurian legends, but far more navigable. ---
**Author:** ![Foolonthehill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Foolonthehill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foolonthehill)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/11 "2004-01-26T19:00:37Z")
As already mentioned; Geoffery of Monmouth and Thomas Mallory are the two sources most folks are familar with. John Milton, (the poet), wrote The History Of Britain using Geoffery as his primary, but not sole, source. Thomas Bullfinch wrote The Age Of Chivalry which includes translations of _The Mabingeon_. These are the Welsh tales that seem to contain the seeds of Arthurian stories. Most Welsh scholars think Geoffery ripped off the “histories” of St.Talian, Bishop of St. Asaph, written in the 7th century. (To my knowledge these do not exist anymore) “Arthur,” the character, is most likely based on a Briton chieftan who had some early successes against the invading Saxons, before being driven into Wales. Welsh poets then took up the story. If you can find them, two of the early Welsh poets worth reading are Talesin and Aneurin. Talesin wrote about 50-100 years after the final battles. He even uses the name “Arthur” in his poems. Aneurin is a survivor of the final battles and writes in the first person about the Saxon invasion. From Aneurin’s The Battle Of Cattraeth’s Vale: _…but none to Cattraeth’s Vale return,_ _Save Aeron brave and Conan strong,_ _Bursting through the bloddy throng._ _And I, the meanest of them all,_ _That live to weep and sing their fall._ (As an aside, this is the first mention of Conan in literature.) Hope some of this helps. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/12 "2004-01-26T19:08:07Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Ashe is odd in that he totally switched gears, originally believing Arthur existed when/where he’s traditionally been placed (early 6th century England) but now insisting he was one with [Riothamus](http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/origins/riothamu.html). As I understand it, Ashe thinks “Riothamus” was a title, and the guy’s real name was Artorius. Still, he’s short-circuiting his own argument: Arthur is the name for the victor of Badon because if there is no Arthur then who WAS the leader at Badon? Now, he’s placing Arthur much earlier, years before Badon and we are STILL left with the question: who led the Britons at Badon? Me, I think it was Arthur and that Riothamus is someone else. ---
**Author:** ![RitzyRae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@RitzyRae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitzyRae)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/13 "2004-01-26T19:54:42Z")
Please read everything suggested in this thread. Then when you are ready to read something totally different, and even rather bizarre, read **Dragon Queen** by Alice Borchardt (Ann Rice’s sister). While the novel focuses more on Guinevere and has an evil Merlin, it is by far the most interesting retelling I’ve read. ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/14 "2004-01-26T19:59:49Z")
> [@Avalonian](#): > > Also, Bernard Cornwell’s three-book [Warlord Chronicles](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312156960/qid=1075129906/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4299712-2004662?v=glance&s=books) (the linked book is the first in the series) is a sharp and original take on the history behind the Arthurian story. Though the story lacks the romance and magic of many of the popular Arthurian works, I get the feeling from other things I’ve read that, if Arthur ever existed, Cornwell’s version, with its unfliching realism, would be a more accurate version of the story than most of the others. I also loved the portrayal of Guinevere in this one; she is a much more complex character than any other version of the story, including some I’ve read which focus on her. I’m seconding this, I love these books. They’re a great counter to MZB’s series, which I do enjoy, but get a bit too mystical/new-agey for me at times. Thanks to Avalonian and everyone else, I look forward to reading some of Arthur books mentioned. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/15 "2004-01-26T21:46:17Z")
> [@Foolonthehill](#): > > Thomas Bullfinch wrote The Age Of Chivalry which includes translations of _The Mabingeon_. These are the Welsh tales that seem to contain the seeds of Arthurian stories. Just a minor correction, to help if anyone’s searching - _Mabinogeon_. Actually, that was what Bulfinch used, today it’s known as _The Mabinogion_. The title was coined by Lady Charlotte Guest, who translated the stories (it was an attempt to pluralize _Mabinogi_). The collection is taken from the Red Book of Hergest and the older, but incomplete, White Book of Rydderch . Most don’t even mention Arthur, like the four ‘branches of the Mabinogi’ themselves, or “The Dream of Maxen” (which is at least as accurate as the movie _Gladiator_). Some of the stories Arthur appears in seem to be the stories that inspired Chretien de Troyes (’'Perceval" = Peredur, “Yvain” = Owain, “Erec et Enide” = Geraint). There is some difficulty; though the tales are generally dated to the 11th Century, the manuscripts mentioned came after 1300, and the versions likely have some French influence (Chretien lived in the late 12th Century). Nonetheless Chretien clearly used Welsh sources - Perceval is identified as Welsh, and many Arthurian names (like Guinevere) are Welsh. Comparing the characters in the _Mabinogion_ to the later legend, I would say that most of what we think of as Arthurian really starts with the romances of Chretien. The Celtic origins of the stories (as a filtering of the historical events) are undeniable, but it is the additions of medieval chivalry which have stayed with the legend and made it what it is today. ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/16 "2004-01-26T23:04:42Z")
Is \* Le Morte de Arthur \* written in French, or just the title? The reason I ask is that I have a _Knights of the Round Table_ book by Sidney Lanier and I’m not sure if it’s a really bad adaptation or a grevious mistranslation. It contains some great lines, though, such as: “and much blood they bled both, that all the place there as they fought was overbled with blood.” I was wondering if passages like these are in Malory’s work or if they are a Linier original. ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/17 "2004-01-26T23:05:05Z")
Is \* Le Morte de Arthur \* written in French, or just the title? The reason I ask is that I have a _Knights of the Round Table_ book by Sidney Lanier and I’m not sure if it’s a really bad adaptation or a grevious mistranslation. It contains some great lines, though, such as: “and much blood they bled both, that all the place there as they fought was overbled with blood.” I was wondering if passages like these are in Malory’s work or if they are a Lanier original. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/18 "2004-01-26T23:43:38Z")
> [@RitzyRae](#): > > Then when you are ready to read something totally different, and even rather bizarre, read **Dragon Queen** by Alice Borchardt (Ann Rice’s sister). While the novel focuses more on Guinevere and has an evil Merlin, it is by far the most interesting retelling I’ve read. Excellent news… I got that as a birthday present from my eldest daughter and it’s on my shelf waiting to be read right now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/definitive-work-as-chronicle-of-arthurian-legend/226135/19 "2004-01-27T02:00:25Z")
> [@FabioClone](#): > > Is \* Le Morte de Arthur \* written in French, or just the title? Le Morte d’Arthur is written in english (or atleast the versions I have read, they may have been translated from french). In either case they are avaolable in english (early modern english to be specific).