# Defunct professions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 29, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198 "2016-09-29T13:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/41 "2016-09-30T17:11:17Z")
I once had a job as an [IBM Proof Machine Operator,](http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ibm100/us/en/icons/bankauto/) as did hundreds of workers in large downtown banks. I doubt if that exists anymore. A Proof Machine was how _all_ checks were sorted at _all_ banks before the printed coding was implemented. An operator read the check, entered the amount on a keyboard with the right hand, then fed the check into a slot with the left hand after punching one of 32 buttons that controlled the sorting mechanism. The check was whisked into one of the 32 pockets in a drum mechanism and 32 printing adding machines in the rear kept tabs on the dollar contents of each, plus one for the running grand total. This machine was the only one at the time that could handle _any_ piece of paper of the rough size and shape of a check, and didn’t require the standard IBM punch cards. In the bank where I worked, I developed a routine (which involved programming the machine’s plugboard) to handle loan payments. What took an assistant auditor most of the day I was able to do in about an hour. The auditor was overjoyed, but my boss didn’t like it much – she was afraid I’d screw up the machine, as no one had ever reprogrammed it before and she didn’t know what those wires and plugs did. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/42 "2016-09-30T17:25:06Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > What do you suppose is the function of every receptionist at every hotel and large corporate office in the land? That person has a fancy phone and distributes incoming calls on a shared main number to the appropriate extensions. Functionally speaking that’s a PBX even if it doesn’t have those pre-1960s plugs and wires. > > Even systems with auto-attendants (“press 1 for accounting, 2 for reservations, 3 for the dining room, …”) still have a person backstopping the whole thing (" …, or press 0 or stay on the line to speak to an operator."). > > That person is, by definition, a PBX operator. I see. Thanks for the explanation. I knew receptionists and administrative assistants have snazzy phones with multiple lines to receive and dispatch calls, of course (the administrative assistant in our department has one on her desk!). I didn’t know whether they still use the term “PBX” for that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/43 "2016-09-30T17:30:59Z")
There was an episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show in the 1970s where a character was looking through want ads in the newspaper and noticing a lot of ads for “keypunch operators”. She said she didn’t even know what a keypunch operator was. (I was studying computer science in college at the time and was intimately familiar with keypunch machines.) That is a profession that is undoubtedly defunct now, although “data entry” is similar. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/44 "2016-09-30T17:33:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You may find this index helpful: > > [Victorian Occupations - Job Titles in the 19th Century - Beginning with the Letter S](http://www.census1891.com/occupations-s.php) > > It lists a “rag cutter” (cuts up rags for papermaking), but no “rag smasher”. > > My favorite (defunct) job title: “Slubber Doffer”. Someone who removes bobbins from spindles in a mill. > > Many “defunct” jobs still exist as artisanal curiosities (hell, there are folks out there making medieval swords for sale), but I’m guessing that this sort of industrial-type occupation is indeed “defunct”. Great cite. Similar lists, although without governmental authority, exist for Renaissance and Medieval periods. I’ll scrounge around. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/45 "2016-09-30T17:38:51Z")
I wonder if the job of Diesel Fitter still exists? I think they were employed in pantyhose factories. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/46 "2016-09-30T18:03:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Coopers are hardly obsolete. With the world-wide boom in whisk(e)y production, the occupation is in greater demand today than it has been in a century. Lots of barrels are also made for the winemaking industry as well. Granted, barrels were much more in demand say… 100-150 years ago, but being a cooper is still a going profession, unlike some of the others that date from those days. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/47 "2016-09-30T18:14:41Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I once had a job as an [IBM Proof Machine Operator,](http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ibm100/us/en/icons/bankauto/) as did hundreds of workers in large downtown banks. I doubt if that exists anymore. > … > In the bank where I worked, I developed a routine (which involved programming the machine’s plugboard) to handle loan payments. What took an assistant auditor most of the day I was able to do in about an hour. The auditor was overjoyed, but my boss didn’t like it much – she was afraid I’d screw up the machine, as no one had ever reprogrammed it before and she didn’t know what those wires and plugs did. My Mom was something close to a proof machine operator for the original BofA in the early 1950s. My first “IT” job included maintaining the plug boards and operating the last few IBM offline tab machine dinosaurs my employer still had. Tried my hand at creating a few plugboard programs from scratch; it wasn’t easy. A couple years later the last real tab machine had gone the scrapyard. We still had lots of programs, JCL, and even a few datasets on cards so we kept a non-programmable 12-pocket card sorter to reindex the database 🙂 after the occasional but inevitable dropped deck. About 5 years later TSO, IPSF, IMS, CICS, _et al_, had eliminated the last physical punched card and the sorter followed its old stablemates into the scrapyard. All 3000 pounds of it. Those things were built like a 1951 John Deere. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/48 "2016-09-30T18:23:18Z")
I think to be truly “defunct” a profession must meet some criteria. It is actually surprisingly difficult to think up a profession no-one still does, somewhere. 1. It has to be something no longer useful, because the good or service is either no longer used, or done cheaper and better some other way. 2. That isn’t enough, because there are whole categories of goods which are no longer used, but are collector’s items or have some specialist interest. No one “needs” a medieval broadsword, but forging them is nonetheless an existing occupation. 3. Also, even if the good or service can be performed some cheaper way, there are whole categories of activities people do anyway, because it is fun, or because handmade has qualities superior to machine-made (so, lots of potters still exist, both as hobbyists and because there is still a market for hand-made pottery, even though machines can stamp out pots very cheaply). 4. Also, there cannot be a lot of interest in knowing how it was done. There are still people who specialize in such archaic skills as flint-knapping, just to learn more about ancient flint-knappers. 5. Thus, a good candidate for truly “defunct” professions are industrial occupations, in which laborious, dirty and/or dangerous activities have long been replaced with improvements to machinery - assuming the occupations don’t still exist somewhere like North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/49 "2016-09-30T18:36:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think to be truly “defunct” a profession must meet some criteria. It is actually surprisingly difficult to think up a profession no-one still does, somewhere. > > 1. It has to be something no longer useful, because the good or service is either no longer used, or done cheaper and better some other way. > > 2. That isn’t enough, because there are whole categories of goods which are no longer used, but are collector’s items or have some specialist interest. No one “needs” a medieval broadsword, but forging them is nonetheless an existing occupation. > > 3. Also, even if the good or service can be performed some cheaper way, there are whole categories of activities people do anyway, because it is fun, or because handmade has qualities superior to machine-made (so, lots of potters still exist, both as hobbyists and because there is still a market for hand-made pottery, even though machines can stamp out pots very cheaply). > > 4. Also, there cannot be a lot of interest in knowing how it was done. There are still people who specialize in such archaic skills as flint-knapping, just to learn more about ancient flint-knappers. > > 5. Thus, a good candidate for truly “defunct” professions are industrial occupations, in which laborious, dirty and/or dangerous activities have long been replaced with improvements to machinery - assuming the occupations don’t still exist somewhere like North Korea. Will you take my “steel puddlers”? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/50 "2016-09-30T18:40:22Z")
@ **malthus** : We had a similar thread not long ago about the idea of ancient process knowledge that’s supposedly been lost. We eventually got around to the conclusion that damn near nothing that humanity has ever learned how to do has been truly forgotten. For the reasons you enumerate. Somebody somewhere today knows how to knap a flint, tie it to a stick with grass & bark, and has killed a large herbivore using just such a self-made tool. And cooked and eaten part of the critter after starting a fire using makeshift found objects. @ **yabob** : A link or some explanation would help. So far all we you’ve given us is two generic nouns side by side. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/51 "2016-09-30T18:52:04Z")
I think I (or rather, my friend Dr Google) [can help](https://sites.lafayette.edu/vast265-sp12/steelopedia/m-p/puddling/): > [@](#): > > The process of puddling was one of the most important process in making iron and steel. […] Pig iron was heated to a molten state in a large furnace. The molten metal was stirred and carbon began to burn off. […] Finally, the molten metal was then made into balls and the remaining impurities were hammered out. […] > > The puddler was highly skilled and was the best worker in the company. This was a dangerous occupation, which required much physical strength, stamina and concentration, “The puddlers were the aristocracy of the proletariat, proud, clannish, set apart by sweat and blood. Few of them lived past forty. Numerous efforts were made to mechanize the puddling furnace…Machines could be made to stir the bath, but only the human eye and touch could separate out the solidifying decarburized metal.” […] > > However, the puddling process made the first glimpses of steel. Workers began experiment with the puddling process to make the steel. […] Puddled steel was just wrought iron that was not heated as long. The process of puddling steel opened the doors to many different processes of making steel. Eventually The puddlers were replaced by machines and different process. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/52 "2016-09-30T18:52:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > @ **malthus** : We had a similar thread not long ago about the idea of ancient process knowledge that’s supposedly been lost. We eventually got around to the conclusion that damn near nothing that humanity has ever learned how to do has been truly forgotten. For the reasons you enumerate. > > Somebody somewhere today knows how to knap a flint, tie it to a stick with grass & bark, and has killed a large herbivore using just such a self-made tool. And cooked and eaten part of the critter after starting a fire using makeshift found objects. > @ **yabob** : A link or some explanation would help. So far all we you’ve given us is two generic nouns side by side. Process for making bar iron or mild steel before the invention of the Bessemer converter: > **[Puddling (metallurgy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_(metallurgy))** > > Puddling is the process of converting pig iron to bar (wrought) iron in a coal fired reverberatory furnace. It was developed in England during the 1780s. The molten pig iron was stirred in a reverberatory furnace, in an oxidizing environment to burn the carbon, resulting in wrought iron. It was one of the most important processes for making the first appreciable volumes of valuable and useful bar iron (malleable wrought iron) without the use of charcoal. Eventually, the furnace would be used Th... Note how the article uses the verb “were” pretty throughout in describing the process. The Bessemer converter was invented in the 1850s. It was a skilled occupation, and a very dirty, dangerous one that didn’t scale up easily. As per the wiki article: > [@](#): > > Working as a two-man crew, a puddler and helper could produce about 1500 kg of iron in a 12-hour shift.[10] The strenuous labor, heat and fumes caused puddlers to have a very short life expectancy, with most dying in their 30s.[11] Puddling was never able to be automated because the puddler had to sense when the balls had “come to nature”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/53 "2016-09-30T18:54:11Z")
There are lots of people who know how to knap flint. That doesn’t make them a professional flint-knapper. So I don’t think #4 belongs on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/54 "2016-09-30T18:59:28Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > Will you take my “steel puddlers”? Yup. That’s _exactly_ the sort of thing I was thinking of. It is hard to imagine anyone these days really wanting “artisanal hand-puddled steel”, or anyone whose idea of a fun hobby is “puddling their own steel” after a hard day’s work at the office. Nor is the process so interesting that some museum somewhere has recreated it, to learn the secrets of early Victorian steel-puddlers. (With the caveat that someone in the developing world may, for all I know, still be doing it!). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/55 "2016-09-30T19:01:52Z")
Buggy whip manufacturer is the classic example used by economists. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/56 "2016-09-30T19:05:32Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There are lots of people who know how to knap flint. That doesn’t make them a professional flint-knapper. > > So I don’t think #4 belongs on the list. It’s mostly a hobby, but some people do it for money. I would think that counts, if they make a living doing it, like most other crafts. [Finished Pieces - NeolithicsFlintknappingSupplyHouse](http://www.neolithics.com/finished-pieces-by-craig-ratzat/) [http://www.neolithics.com/english-gun-flints/](http://www.neolithics.com/english-gun-flints/) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/57 "2016-09-30T19:07:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Buggy whip manufacturer > > is the classic example used by economists. That’s just the problem. While such occupations have obviously faded into relative obscurity, you can always find _someone_ still doing it. [http://www.drivingessentials.com/Whips.php](http://www.drivingessentials.com/Whips.php) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/58 "2016-09-30T19:08:54Z")
Yes, except there are still horse-drawn carriages, and people still drive them, and they still use buggy whips. You can get brand-new ones today on Amazon. It’s exactly the sort of niche profession that can still exist, despite being obsolete. Contrast that to flint-knapping, which doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/59 "2016-09-30T19:11:17Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes, except there are still horse-drawn carriages, and people still drive them, and they still use buggy whips. You can get brand-new ones today on Amazon. It’s exactly the sort of niche profession that can still exist, despite being obsolete. Contrast that to flint-knapping, which doesn’t. Didn’t I just post a couple of links to folks selling knapped products? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/60 "2016-09-30T19:14:34Z")
Here’s another example: [http://www.ced.ltd.uk/products/knapped-flints](http://www.ced.ltd.uk/products/knapped-flints) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198.md?page=4)