# Dehumanizing language should not be allowed **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 13, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435 "2023-06-13T16:14:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/23 "2023-06-13T17:41:19Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > **No slurs or racist cheap shots.** Do not post slurs or other cheap shots against minorities, including but not limited to groups characterized by race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, or gender orientation. I think this should be adequate to moderate referring to illegal aliens and refugees as “invaders”. It is almost always a veiled racist cheap shot. I also don’t think that “invader” is dehumanizing. While we sometimes talk about, say, the zebra mussel invading the great lakes, that’s a word that’s usually used for people. So I feel like the OP is neither necessary nor sufficient to address the issue that prompted it. I would suggest that if a post makes you too angry to respond politely, you should probably report it, and not try to respond directly. For a lot of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/24 "2023-06-13T17:41:37Z")
And that is the answer. You went well past explaining why the post was offensive and to insulting the other poster. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/25 "2023-06-13T17:42:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > As I recall, you were modded for insulting another poster. > > …yes. That’s what I said. The pertinent part of what you said that I was responding to was “_That thread’s moderation had the effect of protecting racism and xenophobia and punishing folks who called it out_”. I don’t know what mod action you would think would be appropriate when you were perceived to be insulting another poster. “Racism” and “xenophobia" are not prohibited words and you weren’t being modded for language, you were being modded for attacking another poster. Again, having the moral high ground isn’t an excuse. FWIW, I thought the thread ban was rather extreme for whatever you may have said in that one post, but perhaps a mod note would have been appropriate to curtail the personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/26 "2023-06-13T17:43:39Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > And that is the answer. You went well past explaining why the post was offensive and to insulting the other poster. Yes, I’m aware that’s how you read it. That’s the first part of what I wrote. As far as I can tell, you took it as insulting when I said that the term’s use was rooted in racism and xenophobia. Is this incorrect? If it’s incorrect, I really don’t understand what you took as insulting. If it’s correct, then your solution to Great Replacement Theory adherents (or those who coopt its terminology) is unworkable, because when we explain why they’re wrong, it’s treated as “insulting the other poster.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/27 "2023-06-13T17:43:45Z")
Can we please move on from relitigating that series of posts? It is kind of hijacking this fresh thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/28 "2023-06-13T17:46:07Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Can we please move on from relitigating that series of posts? Again: the problem is that you’ve proposed a solution in this thread that in practice you moderate against. I at least am “relitigating” because one of us is misunderstanding the situation. It may be me, but without clarification on what you found insulting, I’ll be walking on eggshells trying to figure out what exactly you see as the problem. Is it okay, when someone spouts racist rhetoric, to point out that their rhetoric is racist? Do we need to tiptoe around that word? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/29 "2023-06-13T17:47:51Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > In the thread that spawned this one, I quoted the following thread/rule: > > > [@](#): > > > > The staff would like to clarify the SDMB’s long-standing rule against hate speech and our views on racist speech on the SDMB generally. Hate speech – that is, racial epithets and other pejorative remarks about minorities that in our opinion are clearly racist – is prohibited in all forums. If you see instances of hate speech on the SDMB, please flag the post and we will take such action as we think appropriate. Not all pejorative comments about minorities rise to the level of hate speech o… > > To which, EZ says two sequences that seem to be in conflict with each other. First, which almost exactly echoes the closing line of the prior thread. > > > 1. Not all pejorative comments about minorities rise to the level of hate speech or, in our judgment, are clearly racist. We recognize there are differences of opinion on what constitutes racist speech. We leave it to the SDMB community to debate such questions. If you believe a post is racist, you are free to say so, provided you abide by our rule against insults – see point #6 below. Others are free to disagree with you. The belief that the truth will emerge from the clash of views in open debate is a cardinal principle of this board. > > But almost immediately after: > > > **No slurs or racist cheap shots.** Do not post slurs or other cheap shots against minorities, including but not limited to groups characterized by race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, or gender orientation. Example: In a discussion of Henry Ford ordering his engineers to examine a foreign aircraft so they could copy it, poster A commented, “What the h\*ll–did Ford think he was Chinese or something?” This gratuitous remark in a thread having nothing to do with China plays to the stereotype that Chinese people as a class are ripoff artists. This is a racist cheap shot. Remarks of this type will be modded. Thanks for digging that up. I had a vague sense there had in fact been clarification in hate speech before, but couldn’t find it to support an argument in the recent ATMB thread. Maybe the mods could pin that thread? Or else update the rules to include that expanded definition (I have flagged the thread making essentially the same request). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/30 "2023-06-13T17:51:04Z")
You were angrily going after another poster. This is not the thread to keep rehashing it. You’re not getting any further clarification. You probably should have flagged the post, but you know that. You said as much somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/31 "2023-06-13T17:51:41Z")
I did flag the post. Nothing happened. The lack of further clarification is a strange choice, but I guess I’ll keep walking on eggshells lest the mods rap my knuckles. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/32 "2023-06-13T17:52:49Z")
Sounds good to me. * * * * * * As I thought, you didn’t flag the post until after the Modnote. You are being very disingenuous. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/985177/58): > > I don’t give a shit what you say about giving a shit. It’s xenophobia informed by racism to call them invaders, and it’s dangerous propaganda that encourages violence against immigrants, and it’s deeply shameful that you persist in such characterization of people trying to make a better life for their families. Is not instructing another poster in a way that is allowed, that is clearly attacking another poster. Now I have wasted enough time on you trying to relitigate the past? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/33 "2023-06-13T18:05:11Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > As I thought, you didn’t flag the post until after the Modnote. > > You are being very disingenuous. If it ever came across that I was suggesting I flagged before the modnote, I apologize: that’s not at all what I meant to suggest. I flagged the post **after the modnote about me, not about TOWP.** Nothing happened. As for what you quote me saying in that thread, my only concern at this point is that I believe I was doing what you suggested–angrily, but “saying why it is wrong”. I think you’re proposing an unworkable solution for GD, when the workable solution is to moderate against “racist cheap shots.” But I’m also convinced at this point that you’re going to hear this better from other people than from me, given the timber of your responses to me in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/34 "2023-06-13T18:07:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think this should be adequate to moderate referring to illegal aliens and refugees as “invaders”. It is almost always a veiled racist cheap shot. I also don’t think that “invader” is dehumanizing. While we sometimes talk about, say, the zebra mussel invading the great lakes, that’s a word that’s usually used for people. So I feel like the OP is neither necessary nor sufficient to address the issue that prompted it. Uh, About the Zebra Mussel, you do realize that environmentalists do use the word “invasion” in the proper way to point out that the local mussel population is wiped out when the Zebras invade? > **[Zebra Mussels: A guide to the good and the bad of these Great Lakes invaders...](https://www.greatlakesnow.org/2020/02/zebra-mussels-impact-good-bad/)** > > \[spb\_text\_block animation=”none” animation\_delay=”0″ simplified\_controls=”yes” custom\_css\_percentage=”no” padding\_vertical=”0″ padding\_horizontal=”0″ margin\_vertical=”0″ custom\_css=”margin-top: 0px;margin-bottom: 0px;” border\_size=”0″... > ## **Native mussels dying out** > > Freshwater mussels throughout the nation are [already struggling](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-dont-know-why-freshwater-mussels-are-dying-across-north-america-180973802/), and it isn’t helping the situation when zebra mussels come in and take over their food and spawning grounds. > > In many smaller inland lakes but also some areas of the Great Lakes where the invasive mussels have come in, native mussel species have been wiped out. IMHO this is a dog whistle that is used to dehumanize others, and that is ignored by many moderates… and moderators. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/35 "2023-06-13T18:09:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, About the Zebra Mussel, you do realize that environmentalists do use the word “invasion” in the proper way to point out that the local mussel population is wiped out when the Zebras invade? Yes. It was also the only example I could think of for “invader” being used for a non-human. “Invader” is often used as a dog whistle, and I think its use with respect to immigration is inflammatory and usually racist. But I don’t think it’s “dehumanizing”. I think that’s the wrong criticism. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/36 "2023-06-13T18:12:07Z")
The point stands, the use against immigrants (as many intolerants out there use it) is to dehumanize the immigrants as just beings that are coming to wipe out the local population. That is why they talk a lot about “white genocide” or “White replacement.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/37 "2023-06-13T18:23:29Z")
I agree that, technically, “dehumanizing” isn’t the very best word for what’s happening here. Remove a syllable, and you get “demonizing,” which is a lot closer. Or if you prefer a term that’s awkward but even more accurate and less metaphorically evocative, there’s “othering.” It’s a small point, and only really worth addressing so that we don’t get sidetracked into pedantry instead of addressing the core problem. Violent racist/xenophobic terminology takes a variety of forms, but what they share in common is an effort to make another group seem like dangerous or contemptible outsiders, not worthy of respect and dignity. Dehumanizing, demonizing, othering language should not be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/38 "2023-06-13T18:25:55Z")
Although, as I’m just saying, going for an example that uses the word in the correct way, in the animal world, does not really help in this case when attempting to declare that this is not “dehumanizing.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/39 "2023-06-13T18:28:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Although, as I’m just saying, going for an example that uses the word in the correct way in the animal world does not really help in this case when attempting to declare that this is not “dehumanizing.” I’m not sure you got her point, but I’m also not sure that the zebra mussels are super important in this case. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/40 "2023-06-13T18:33:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > My take away from the conversation had in the Modloop and Ed’s post My takeaway from Ed’s post, since apparently we’re allowed to mention it here: It’s basically a vague noise that means nothing. It boils down to effectively saying (not a direct quote): ‘Maybe it’s racist, uncivil, or otherwise objectionable to call undocumented immigrants “invaders”. And maybe it isn’t. And if it gets reported, maybe we’ll do something about it and maybe we won’t.’ I don’t see any way in which that post is helpful. And I don’t see any way in which the earlier discussion was about the word “invaders” in all applications. I don’t think anybody was saying that it should be forbidden on this board to call armies crossing borders by use of force invaders; let alone zebra mussels. The whole discussion was about the word “invaders” _in the specific context_ of undocumented workers, undocumented asylum seekers, and their families. About which we got no guidance whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/41 "2023-06-13T18:33:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Remove a syllable, and you get “demonizing,” which is a lot closer. Yeah, I like “demonizing” a lot better for the idea that I believe is intended. And I think words matter, because this board (and the moderation thereof) tends towards pedantry. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/42 "2023-06-13T18:36:58Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/985177/58): > > > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/985177/58): > > > > I don’t give a shit what you say about giving a shit. It’s xenophobia informed by racism to call them invaders, and it’s dangerous propaganda that encourages violence against immigrants, and it’s deeply shameful that you persist in such characterization of people trying to make a better life for their families. > > Is not instructing another poster in a way that is allowed, that is clearly attacking another poster. I’ll ask for clarification on this, not in the interest of relitigating the past, but to make sure I understand when a post becomes “attacking the poster.” Breaking LHoD’s quote into three parts: 1. _I don’t give a shit what you say about giving a shit._ → this is certainly angry and I could see a “tone it down” note. But it doesn’t seem like an insult or attack to me. 2. _It’s xenophobia informed by racism to call them invaders, and it’s dangerous propaganda that encourages violence against immigrants_ → this seems to me like he’s doing what you are advocating, explaining what is wrong with the language used. 3. _…and it’s deeply shameful that you persist in such characterization of people trying to make a better life for their families._ → I don’t see any instructions to the poster, or an insult to them personally. It’s describing what is wrong with what they said. I fully accept that I might not be reading these right, or I’m missing some aspect of this that you want to keep out of conversations. But I don’t know what it is. Apologies for continuing to harp on something that I know you want to move past, but I think it’s important for us to get clarity on this going forward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435.md?page=3)