# Dehumanizing language should not be allowed **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 13, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435 "2023-06-13T16:14:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/104 "2023-06-14T03:35:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > protected characteristic I think you really wanted _immutable characteristic_ there. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/105 "2023-06-14T03:37:37Z")
Immutable is not the right word. For example, if I stay out in the sun, my skin turns very dark. Some people develop a different gender identity after birth. Some people acquire or lose accents. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/107 "2023-06-14T03:39:59Z")
And which of those three examples is a protected characteristic? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/108 "2023-06-14T03:41:50Z")
All three are, or should be. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/109 "2023-06-14T03:44:03Z")
Which sounds like an attempt to broaden the meaning of “protected characteristic” to the point that it eventually makes it meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/110 "2023-06-14T03:45:02Z")
> As stated on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission’s (EOCC) website, these are eight protected characteristics in the United States in the context of employment discrimination: **race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, and genetic information**. Surprisingly, having a tan is not on that list. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/111 "2023-06-14T03:46:33Z")
The three examples are skin color, gender, and accent. Maybe I’m having a brain fart, but wouldn’t it be uncivil to denigrate people for having a certain skin color/gender/accent? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/112 "2023-06-14T03:52:00Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Surprisingly, having a tan is not on that list. “Color” means skin color, and for some people, a dark tan means you don’t pass as white any more. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/123 "2023-06-14T04:53:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I agree with **Ed** ’s decision which basically says that mods already have adequate discretion to deal with hateful and otherwise disruptive posts and we don’t need any more rules. This would be acceptable if the mods actually were all-knowing on the matter. But as the various moderation problems around racism, misogyny and trans issues has shown, mods have had gaping holes around either their knowledge of, or willingness to moderate, various issues in the past. I don’t think the newer mods, as dedicated as they are, are immune to all of that. Clearer rules would be better. > [@wolfpup](#): > > As far as hate speech goes, we’re all familiar with the well-entrenched terms of hate speech This is the same idea as Ed’s " these terms are well known and do not need spelling out. " And it is _not_ always true. It took a while for misgendering to become moddable, for instance. And let’s not go into how I had to fucking _work_ to get Hottentot recognized as a slur. > [@wolfpup](#): > > The pertinent issue here is not about language, “dehumanizing” or otherwise, it’s about attitudes and ideas, and that’s how posters should be judged and how their posts should be moderated. I trust the mods’ ability to apply clear rules more than I do their ability to read minds. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/124 "2023-06-14T04:57:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Except I _am_ walking on eggshells, because I’m afraid the teacher might rap my knuckles at any moment for using bad words like “racism” and “xenophobia.” That thread’s moderation had the effect of protecting racism and xenophobia and punishing folks who called it out. Exactly. Well put. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/126 "2023-06-14T05:10:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think its use with respect to immigration is inflammatory and usually racist. But I don’t think it’s “dehumanizing” Dehumanizing may not mean what you think. It is not some sci-fi concept. _All_ racism _is_ dehumanizing. You can’t say something is usually racist and yet not dehumanizing. That’s a contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/127 "2023-06-14T05:12:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It’s basically a vague noise that means nothing. My feeling too. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/128 "2023-06-14T05:15:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _All_ racism _is_ dehumanizing. You can’t say something is usually racist and yet not dehumanizing. That’s a contradiction. Agreed. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/129 "2023-06-14T05:16:37Z")
The ‘First they are Xs, then they are humans.’ construction _is_ the othering that leads dehumanizing. ‘_First_ they are Jews, _then_ they are “humans”.’ would have been a fine, early, Nazi slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/130 "2023-06-14T05:18:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But as the various moderation problems around racism, misogyny and trans issues has shown, mods have had gaping holes around either their knowledge of, or willingness to moderate, various issues in the past. Completely agree. I would accept the new non-rule rule if I had any confidence that when this kind of clearly racist othering language is used, the combination of post flags and poster pushback would result in mod action against the racist usage. But what has actually historically happened, and what continues to happen to the present, is that the callouts against the racist usage are themselves flagged and modded as distracting hijacks if not outright attacks, so the racist usage ends up persisting, tolerated if not _de facto_ endorsed by the board’s culture. In the abstract, an official promise to guard against inherently racist rhetoric _sounds_ good, but in proven practice, this is just a restatement of a principle which has not been upheld. This whole discussion is discouraging and dispiriting. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/131 "2023-06-14T05:18:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The problem with more rules is that mods then feel an obligation to interpret them and enforce their interpretations, and in a few cases this has already led to some questionable and strained judgment calls. “More rules” has also led to better moderation around misogyny and transphobia, and made GD better on the open racism front. More rules has overall been _better_, not worse. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/132 "2023-06-14T05:23:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Clearer rules would be better. “Clearer rules” here seems like a euphemism for “bureaucracy” – i.e.- rigid bureaucratic dictates. There is no substitute for good judgment. We may sometimes fall short of it, but rigid rule-making often does more harm than good, because in the absence of the good judgment that it seeks to ameliorate, we can end up with well-intentioned but ultimately asinine rulings. I can think of a few examples right here on this board but I’d rather not digress into specifics > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > As far as hate speech goes, we’re all familiar with the well-entrenched terms of hate speech > > This is the same idea as Ed’s " these terms are well known and do not need spelling out. " And it is _not_ always true. It took a while for misgendering to become moddable, for instance. What, it’s a surprise to you that culture changes over time? And that moderation criteria would change accordingly? Why would you think that rigid bureaucratic rule-making would put us ahead of the curve and make us more enlightened? Bureaucracy usually has the opposite effect. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > The pertinent issue here is not about language, “dehumanizing” or otherwise, it’s about attitudes and ideas, and that’s how posters should be judged and how their posts should be moderated. > > I trust the mods’ ability to apply clear rules more than I do their ability to read minds. It’s not about mind-reading, it’s about reading posts in the same cultural context as represented by the vast majority of posters on this board, and, indeed, the same cultural context as the sane inhabitants of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/133 "2023-06-14T05:30:49Z")
The problem I’m having is that othering unlawfully present aliens as “invaders” does not, in my view, lead to “first they are invaders, then they are humans”. At least no more so than othering of “Floridians” and “Republicans”. Even othering of Jews is not inherently dehumanizing. When one says the _Jews_ take Sabbath on Saturday, with the connotation that he doesn’t do so and isn’t a Jew, that does not imply Jews are Jews first and humans second. Othering is not the same as dehumanization, and the former does not imply the latter. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/134 "2023-06-14T05:31:32Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > “Clearer rules” here seems like a euphemism for “bureaucracy” – i.e.- rigid bureaucratic dictates. Do you feel the clearer rules about misogyny, misgendering or “no scientific racism/9-11denial/MRAs/Holocaus Denial in GD” were “bureaucracy”? > [@wolfpup](#): > > rigid rule-making often does more harm than good I’ve already provided my take on why that is not true. > [@wolfpup](#): > > What, it’s a surprise to you that culture changes over time? What, it’s a surprise to you that I don’t appreciate sarcasm in a serious thread? > [@wolfpup](#): > > moderation criteria would change accordingly What are we asking for, _if not_ a change in moderation criteria? > [@wolfpup](#): > > Why would you think that rigid bureaucratic rule-making Your strawman. Better rules don’t have to be rigid ones. > [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s not about mind-reading Of course it is. > [@wolfpup](#): > > the sane inhabitants of the world Not sure who you’re calling insane here, but I’m pretty sure whoever it is, you’re dehumanizing them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2023, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435/135 "2023-06-14T05:34:31Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The mods are pretty good about chasing down hateful speech and bigotry when it rises to a level that justifies appropriate action “Pretty good”? How many _years_ did it take for misogyny or scientific racism to rise to the level of moddable? > [@wolfpup](#): > > someone’s use of intemperate language will turn this community into a rampaging horde of xenophobic bigots Not your ox being gored - I, for one, am glad to be rid of the “Africans are all congenitally intellectually disabled” days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dehumanizing-language-should-not-be-allowed/985435.md?page=7)