# Delay in expected change from "Two Thousand and..." pronunciation: Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 16, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715 "2014-08-16T22:15:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/41 "2014-08-22T00:09:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I have never in my entire life heard a person read a number written in decimal form as “… and (a fraction.)” Not an American, not anyone else. Absolutely without exception everyone I’ve ever met would read “203.7” as “two hundred and three point seven” or “two hundred three point seven” or quite conceivably “two-oh-three point seven.” … Interesting. But if you ask any working math teacher, you’ll hear (I predict) that it “should” be pronounced “two hundred three and seven tenths.” (No need to take my word for it!) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/42 "2014-08-22T01:10:01Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Interesting. But if you ask any working math teacher, you’ll hear (I predict) that it “should” be pronounced “two hundred three and seven tenths.” (No need to take my word for it!) Never studied maths under an American teacher, but it strikes me that such a way of reading is not only inconvenient but also irrational. If you don’t say “two hundreds, no tens, three units”, why would you go on to say “seven tenths”? And it suggested that if there were more than one place of decimals, a US maths teacher would tell me that I ought to go on to specify the quantity of hundreths, thousandths, etc? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/43 "2014-08-22T17:00:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Interesting. But if you ask any working math teacher, you’ll hear (I predict) that it “should” be pronounced “two hundred three and seven tenths.” (No need to take my word for it!) Can you provide a cite, please? If it’s such a standard thing then it should be objectively demonstrable. I asked my fiancée about this, who works with a team entirely comprised of Americans with Master’s and Doctorate degrees in mathematics. She’s never heard a single human being ever say a number like this. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/44 "2014-08-22T21:10:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Can you provide a cite, please? If it’s such a standard thing then it should be objectively demonstrable. The first search words I used: word “and” “reading decimal numbers” The first hit on that page of results (look at pages 5 and 6): [https://www.sinclair.edu/centers/tlc/pub/handouts\_worksheets/mathematics/DEV085/1\_whole\_numbers/085\_whole\_number\_decimal\_place\_value\_instruction.pdf](https://www.sinclair.edu/centers/tlc/pub/handouts_worksheets/mathematics/DEV085/1_whole_numbers/085_whole_number_decimal_place_value_instruction.pdf) Here’s an excerpt, showing some examples (discussion of the use of “and” begins on page 5. Sample instruction: “_Read an “and” to indicate the decimal point_.”). > [@](#): > > EXAMPLES: > a) thirty thousand, forty two and seventy five thousandths is written 30,042.075 > b) two thousand, three and three tenths is written 2,003.3 > c) seven hundred and five hundredths is written 700.05 > d) ten thousand, one hundred seventy and twelve hundredths is written 10,170.12 A second result from the first page of hits, grabbed at random: > **[Decimal Place Value (video lessons, examples, solutions)](https://www.onlinemathlearning.com/decimal-place-value.html)** > > Decimal Place Value and Reading Decimals, how to express them as decimals, and how to distinguish different types of fractions, how to read and write decimals using place values, with video lessons, examples and solutions. > [@](#): > > The word name of the decimal is determined by the place value of the digit in the last place. > The last digit (5) is in the ten-thousandth place. > \*38.7425 is read as thirty-eight and seven thousand four hundred twenty-five ten thousandths \* (italics mine) The ease of finding these imply that it’s a fairly common piece of knowledge (in American pedagogy, anyway). I’d invite you to use either my search words or similar ones, and find as many examples as you’d like. I was surprised by what seems to be emotion in a couple of the posts about this; there’s an appearance of writers feeling some sort of personal sense of offense. Is there a reason to get exercised about this topic? After all, it’s merely _usage_: neither “right” nor “wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![thecavalry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@thecavalry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thecavalry)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/45 "2014-08-22T22:02:58Z")
Huh, this is interesting, and not something that I’ve even noticed. I do say two-thousand-fourteen rather than twenty-fourteen, as most people I know do. I think it’s just carried on from the fact that I’ve said two-thousand-xxxxx for most of my life (throughout the 2010s), so the phrasing stuck. Also, two-thousand-fourteen isn’t actually that long to say. It’s not like in the 1900s, when they would have had to say one-thousand-nine-hundred-and-fourteen. Once we get into higher numbers, people’ll probably revert to the old format. Maybe once we hit 2020, as Alley Dweller said, since that rolls off the tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/46 "2014-08-22T22:37:47Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Interesting. But if you ask any working math teacher, you’ll hear (I predict) that it “should” be pronounced “two hundred three and seven tenths.” (No need to take my word for it!) I have to agree. I always taught the kids that they should say “and” for the decimal point. So 203 is two hundred three, and 203.8 is two hundred three and eight tenths. Whether they do it once they were out of my school, though, I don’t know. I pronounce the year as twenty fourteen, though. It just sounds right to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/47 "2014-08-22T23:41:20Z")
> [@thecavalry](#): > > Huh, this is interesting, and not something that I’ve even noticed. … And now you may find that people’s choices about this become very noticeable (or at least that’s what happened to me.^\_^) > [@Pai325](#): > > I have to agree. I always taught the kids that they should say “and” for the decimal point. So 203 is two hundred three, and 203.8 is two hundred three and eight tenths. Whether they do it once they were out of my school, though, I don’t know. … I’ve a strong suspicion that it drops away (particularly since most people seldom have occasion to speak a decimal number that isn’t money). I find I usually say “point” (as in “two hundred three point eight”)…but I DO tend to refrain from using an “and” anyplace other than where the decimal point is (so would _not_ say “two hundred and three point eight”). A partial tribute to math-teaching! None of this really matters (so long as no one is confused). I just find the different choices interesting. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/48 "2014-08-23T13:53:35Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I have seem people, use both. Two thousand and… is more common with more formal names, like the Two Thousand and Fourteen FIFA World Cup. Yes, but it was always the “Twenty Twelve” London Olympics - never “Two Thousand and Twelve”. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/49 "2014-08-23T18:53:24Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > Yes, but it was always the “Twenty Twelve” London Olympics - never “Two Thousand and Twelve”. Interesting–I wasn’t paying attention, I guess, because I didn’t remember that. I wonder what sort of discussions went on that led to a uniform use of “Twenty Twelve” in official language (instead of mixed usage)? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/50 "2014-08-23T22:52:04Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > As to why most people say two thousand, I think perhaps it’s to do with the excitement over the millennium? In the years leading up to 2000, we kept talking about it with this sense of awe: The Year Two THOUSAND! So perhaps because of that, two thousand stuck? This is my thinking as well. Remember that the 20th century featured the dawn of “mass media” and high-speed communication. For the first time in world history, (almost) everybody in the world could hear about things almost as fast as they happened, as opposed to previous centuries when it might have taken days, weeks, or months for news to spread. And so, everybody in the world got to spend the last several decades of the 20th century seeing the mass media positioning “THE YEAR 2000” as “THE FUTURE”, where everything would be amazing. We simply grew accustomed to saying “two thousand”. > [@EdwardLost](#): > > Consider house numbers: Do you tell people you live at “forty-three, twenty-five Main Street”, or “four thousand, three hundred, twenty-five Main Street”? The first house number I was aware of was the first house my parents bought, when I was five or six years old. I pronounced our house number, “two-seven-oh-seven”. Probably because, at that age, I didn’t really have a concept of numbers higher than 20 or so, and I just saw it as a series of familiar digits. We moved when I was 17, and our new house number was “ten-forty”, and every subsequent residence of mine has followed that pattern. I currently live at “five-twenty-seven”. > [@Gretchion](#): > > What is the normal way to refer to years in the 11th century? Do we typically say ‘one-thousand fourteen’ or ‘ten fourteen’? To me, using ten sounds odd, and I imagine using twenty sounds odd to many people. Funny you should mention that. I’ve been working my way through J.B Bury’s _The Cambridge Medieval History_, and I’m currently reading about 11th-century events. I read the years as “ten-XX” > [@](#): > > However I do agree with the poster who said we’ll enjoy the gimmick of saying ‘twenty twenty’, and that’s when most people will switch. Unless we think it sounds too much like singing, “In the year twenty-five twenty-five…” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MsKaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@MsKaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsKaren)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/51 "2014-08-24T02:52:54Z")
Personal experience without cites: I teach in an American classroom, and it isn’t my personal opinions that I share. I teach what they need to know to demonstrate mastery of the subject on some standardized test. When asked to write a number in words the ‘and’ alerts you to place a decimal or fraction. However when saying a number, like 'The answer to number 3 is 5 point 2" that is fine. Many things are specific to math class, like other subjects and disciplines. One hundred and 7 thousandths is 100.007 One hundred seven thousandths is 0.107 Yes, that shows up on standardized tests. Back on topic, my grandmother always used expressions like “That was in the summer of aught three” to reminisce about the early 1900’s. I so believed ‘aught’ would come back! I used it faithfully, as did my family and friends. To no avail, we found. It did NOT catch back on. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/52 "2014-08-24T03:46:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Never studied maths under an American teacher… I have and I was never told not to say it as “something point something” unless it was a lesson in converting decimal to fractions. Even my calculus teacher said it that way. > [@MsKaren](#): > > Back on topic, my grandmother always used expressions like “That was in the summer of aught three” to reminisce about the early 1900’s. I so believed ‘aught’ would come back! I used it faithfully, as did my family and friends. To no avail, we found. It did NOT catch back on. ☹ As Cecil’s article notes, it should be naught. Aught basically means the opposite of zero. For what it’s worth, I say the year as twenty-fourteen. Most people say it two-thousand fourteen, but I have heard both. ---
**Author:** ![MsKaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@MsKaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsKaren)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/53 "2014-08-24T04:18:37Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > As Cecil’s article notes, it should be naught. Aught basically means the opposite of zero. We are discussing usage not what it should be. My people said ‘aught’ and that was probably common. 🙂 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names\_for\_the\_number\_0\_in\_English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_the_number_0_in_English) The whole ‘and’ conversation is like the grammar rules followed in formal essays vs. everyday usage. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/54 "2014-08-24T07:06:50Z")
You couldn’t use “twenty-2” for the obvious reason. There was a problem with “Twenty-oh-eight” because “oh-ay” is a dipthong, a vowel slide. As we all know, diphthongs are difficult to articulate (particularly in American English) because producing them is a motor skill which has to be practised in order to obtain a good result. In contrast, “nineteen” ended with ‘n’, so the nineteen-o’s and the nineteen aught’s were easy to pronounce. And we could have gone with twenty-thousand-aught-eight, but once you put the ‘thousand’ in there to get the final ‘d’ to seperate the sounds, you don’t need the ‘aught’ anymore to seperate the ‘twenty’ from the digit. Once we get into the twenty-twenties, the articulation will be very easy, so I certainly expect that pronunciation, but I think it’s happening anyway now that we’re out of the “oh’s” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/55 "2014-08-24T19:32:35Z")
> [@MsKaren](#): > > Personal experience without cites: > I teach in an American classroom, and it isn’t my personal opinions that I share. I teach what they need to know to demonstrate mastery of the subject on some standardized test. When asked to write a number in words the ‘and’ alerts you to place a decimal or fraction. However when saying a number, like 'The answer to number 3 is 5 point 2" that is fine. Many things are specific to math class, like other subjects and disciplines. > > One hundred and 7 thousandths is 100.007 > One hundred seven thousandths is 0.107 Yes, that shows up on standardized tests. > [@MsKaren](#): > > …The whole ‘and’ conversation is like the grammar rules followed in formal essays vs. everyday usage. Yes to both of these points: if your teacher wants you to use “and” only to mean a decimal point, in preparation for a standardized test or otherwise, then you’d best use “and” only to mean a decimal point–while in class. Otherwise, it’s just usage: dealer’s choice. > [@MsKaren](#): > > Back on topic, my grandmother always used expressions like “That was in the summer of aught three” to reminisce about the early 1900’s. I so believed ‘aught’ would come back! I used it faithfully, as did my family and friends. To no avail, we found. It did NOT catch back on. ☹ Virtually all the times I’ve heard someone refer to a year since 2000 with the “aught” construction, they seem to have been doing it archly or for comic effect. Possibly this is due to the widespread influence of _The Simpsons_, in which the ancient Mr. Burns has, in several episodes, used “aught” in naming years… ---
**Author:** ![MsKaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@MsKaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsKaren)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/56 "2014-08-25T03:22:16Z")
Good point. Simpsons are pretty dang influential. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/57 "2014-08-25T03:37:10Z")
This entire discussion reminds me of the troubles I had, and still have, when I was told how to write checks. Luckily that task is becoming rare. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/58 "2014-08-25T03:54:05Z")
Melbourne, I see what you’re getting at, but I don’t think it’s quite right. First, there are tons of diphthongs in English of all types – the very common “o” sound in, say, “go” is one (if you’ve ever learned, say, Italian or Spanish, you know how hard it is to shed this habit). And, conversely, I don’t think “twenty-oh-eight” quite contains consecutive vowel sounds (which you’re right would be a slight difficulty for English speakers – though nothing a glottal stop wouldn’t fix, as in “uh oh”). The “-y” by itself might be “-ee,” but when followed by a vowel we have no trouble emphasizing this phoneme’s consonant potential – the "yuh"ness of “y.” So, “twentee - yo” comes out naturally. Likewise with “oh-eight.” A Spanish speaker would have to insert a glottal stop, but not us – we just emphasize the “-w” which, as I said above, is already part of the English “long o” sound anyway. Thus, “owe - ate.” No problem. It seems you may be confusing spelling with sounds. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/59 "2014-08-25T06:28:08Z")
Dickety-hundred, a dozen and twain. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715/60 "2014-08-25T18:04:00Z")
The decimal meaning of “and” is one of those school rules of English, like the ones where you are told never to use “less” to mean “fewer” or to never end a sentence with a preposition. It’s not practiced in real life, even among professionals. Every mathematician I’ve ever encountered simply says “point” followed by the digits. I really think it started as a way to teach children that decimals and fractions are the same thing. Because we do say, for example, 1 3/100 as “one and three hundredths.” But we sat “one point oh three” for 1.03. As for the years, I’ve said 20-14 rather than 2,014 for a while, and I don’t think I’ve noticed people doing otherwise. I did hear “two thousand eleven” for a bit, though. As for why we don’t just refer to the year as “twelve” or “fourteen,” I think it’s because we don’t want a single word fore a year. If you do it with fourteen, the stress is even wrong. “Back in '13” is said “Back in thir-TEEN,” and that just sounds weird. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-in-expected-change-from-two-thousand-and-pronunciation-why/695715.md?page=4)