# DeLay indicted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 28, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877 "2005-09-28T16:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/141 "2005-09-29T19:27:01Z")
[Sideshow Bob]Conspiracy to violate campiagn finance law, now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for conspiracy to do chemistry?[/SB] ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/142 "2005-09-29T19:28:31Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > [Sideshow Bob]Conspiracy to violate campiagn finance law, now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for conspiracy to do chemistry?[/SB] HA HA HA! I love that line…and I love Sideshow Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/143 "2005-09-29T19:31:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The difference between the cases is that there was extrinsic evidence to shore up the prosecution’s version: Ms. Stewart did, in fact, sell her shares of ImClone. So the jury could infer from that event her participation in an agreement to user insider knowledge. > > Here (so far) there is no similar piece of evidence. > > As I mentioned in the GD thread, this is not legally fatal. The jury could convict Delay based only on the testimony of the other accused conspirators. But if that’s the only thing the jury has to go on, the defense will suggest that the other conspirators’ testimony was motivated by the deals offered to them by the prosecution, and that the prosecution is politically motivated. With absolutely no evidence of Delay’s participation other than the accusations of the other conspirators, it would probably be an easy story to sell. I wasn’t commenting on the quality of the evidence in support of either indictment, but merely trying to disabuse **Stephe96** of the bizarre notion that the prosecutor would need _luck_ in securing a conviction on mere conspiracy charges because no “real” crime must’ve been committed if the underlying or associated offense isn’t also charged. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/144 "2005-09-29T19:37:21Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I wasn’t commenting on the quality of the evidence in support of either indictment, but merely trying to disabuse **Stephe96** of the bizarre notion that the prosecutor would need _luck_ in securing a conviction on mere conspiracy charges because no “real” crime must’ve been committed if the underlying or associated offense isn’t also charged. Um, actually, that “good luck” was directed at those in this thread who seem to pinning their political hopes on a Delay conviction. Maybe you’ll get him and maybe you won’t. I have no idea. But…good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/145 "2005-09-29T19:55:23Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Um, actually, that “good luck” was directed at those in this thread who seem to pinning their political hopes on a Delay conviction. Who’s doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/146 "2005-09-29T20:22:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Who’s doing that? Please stop asking **Stephe96** questions. It’s likely she’ll attempt to answer them, and that won’t be good for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/147 "2005-09-29T21:46:17Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > I don’t know, DeLay has evidently hired [Dick DeGuerin](http://www.roundtop.com/DeGuerin.htm). Same guy who represented Kay Bailey Hutchinson, as well as David Koresch. He is Kinky Friedman’s Campaign Advisor. Not a GOP yes man by a long shot, yet not too fond of Ronnie Earle. One of the top hired guns in Texas, law professor at UTA. Seems fairly confident he won’t lose this one. DeGuerin is a very good lawyer, but he is also a publicity whore. I assure you, the merits of his client’s case had zero to do with his decision to take it. It’s all about the publicity. **Meaglin** : Ronnie Earle was certainly not a “dear caught in the headlights” with the Hutchison trial in 1994. He’s been Travis County D.A. since 1976, after all. Also, FWIW, my recollection of the trial is that the jury had already been seated when the judge ruled that the tapes were inadmissible. Since the tapes were the cornerstone of Earle’s entire case against Hutchison, he was left with no case to present. That led the judge to instruct the jury to return a not guilty verdict. The whole thing was over by lunchtime. I cannot, however, find a contemporaneous report of the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/148 "2005-09-29T22:17:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As I mentioned in the GD thread, this is not legally fatal. The jury could convict Delay based only on the testimony of the other accused conspirators. But if that’s the only thing the jury has to go on, the defense will suggest that the other conspirators’ testimony was motivated by the deals offered to them by the prosecution, and that the prosecution is politically motivated. With absolutely no evidence of Delay’s participation other than the accusations of the other conspirators, it would probably be an easy story to sell. IMHO, they’d be better off with the “motivated by deals” argument than the “political prosecution” argument. That gets thrown around a lot and could backfire in a “They just said that because they don’t have a real defense” way. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/149 "2005-09-29T22:23:51Z")
Of course, it may not matter whether or not DeLay gets off. This story and other republican legal misadventures are beginning to get airplay on the news. Nothin’ sells more than blood in the water. One line from the NBC news coverage cracked me up. > [@](#): > > Some democrats are exuberant in their outrage. 😃 Sums up the political climate rather nicely I think. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/150 "2005-09-29T23:04:52Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > P.S.: Anyone want to start a pool on whether/when Bush pardons his “ally”? I’ll bet you one hundred thousand dollars at 100:1 odds that President George W. Bush will not pardon Tom Delay’s convictions arising from this indictment. And you can go ahead and pay me now. Mr. Bush is President of the United States. He cannot pardon offenses against the state of Texas. That power belongs to the governor of Texas. Mr. Bush can pardon federal crimes. The crime alleged is a state crime. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/151 "2005-09-29T23:12:12Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Also, FWIW, my recollection of the trial is that the jury had already been seated when the judge ruled that the tapes were inadmissible. Since the tapes were the cornerstone of Earle’s entire case against Hutchison, he was left with no case to present. That led the judge to instruct the jury to return a not guilty verdict. The whole thing was over by lunchtime. > > I cannot, however, find a contemporaneous report of the trial. That version of events is certainly plausible. The only thing it leaves me wondering is whether Texas procedure permits interlocutory appeals in such cases. **Minty**? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/152 "2005-09-29T23:31:18Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > 😃 Sums up the political climate rather nicely I think. Oh, it’s _schädenfreud_, and anyone who won’t admit it is a damn liar. But The Hammer has been relentless in his efforts to stifle dissent to the point I think he’s even acted to erode the power of the judiciary, in such angry tones judges felt physically threatened by his incitement against them. He gerrymanders districts, rides roughshod over ethical standards, castrates ethical oversight when it displeases him, blasts the separation of church and state in frighteningly theocratic tones, baldly threatens to make federal judges who he merely disagrees with (versus, say, those who commit impeachable, prosecutable offenses) “answer for their behavior”…the guy’s a nightmare, even for some members of his own party. If this indictment is completely meritless, then _mea culpa_, but if it is not, then he’s legitimately no longer in a position to do quite as much harm as he once was, and that’s something to celebrate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/153 "2005-09-29T23:42:05Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > > > Because the crime is “violating state election laws,” a felony. Why charge him with something else? What is the state law regarding “money laundering,” and why would it be more appropriate? > > ? > > OK, so why not charge him with ‘violating state election laws?’ Quick lesson in conspiracy law: Let’s say you, Hentor, and I conspire to rob a bank. I go out and buy Halloween masks for you and Hentor to wear. We sit down and plan the robbery. You are responsible for transport. Hentor is responsible for the armaments. You and Hentor will actually go in and rob the bank. Now, at this point each of us is guilty of conspiracy to commit the bank robbery. You go out steal a car, so you two can use it for a getaway car. Hentor goes out and buys some stolen pistols to use for the robbery. I can’t be charged with the car theft. I had no idea you were going to steal a car. We didn’t agree on that, and it isn’t foreseeable. Only you are guilty of the car theft. But all of us are guilty of the conspiracy. I can’t be charged with buying Halloween masks. That’s perfectly legal. See the analogy? Delay isn’t charged with an underlying offense because (so far as we know now) he didn’t commit such an offense. But he DID (allegedly) agree to the scheme, and that makes him guilty of conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/154 "2005-09-29T23:49:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The only thing it leaves me wondering is whether Texas procedure permits interlocutory appeals in such cases. **Minty**? Not that I know of, but my gig is on the civil side, so I can’t swear to it. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/155 "2005-09-30T00:39:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Quick lesson in conspiracy law: > > . Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/156 "2005-09-30T00:42:53Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Hopefully, just as the coverage about DeLay’s indictment dies down, they’ll announce Karl Rove’s indictment. From my lips to God’s ears, as they say. Judy Miller is said to be testifying on Friday. > **[Judy Miller Walks...To Testify Today...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/judy-miller-walksto-testi_n_8103)** > [@](#): > > She was released after she had a telephone conversation with the Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, sources said. In that conversation, Libby reaffirmed that he had released Miller from a promise of confidentiality more than a year ago, sources said. With all these indictments and investigations of Republicans, one expects to hear Don Meredith start crooning pretty soon. “Turn out the lights, the party’s over.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/157 "2005-09-30T00:45:52Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Thank you. :: Doffs cap to **Bricker** :: **Bricker** : The wisdom of Solomon. The patience of Job. The gambling addiction of Bill Bennett. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/158 "2005-09-30T00:56:23Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > And by the way, anyone really interested should take a look at the GD thread. **Bricker** ’s analysis in that thread is far more potent a defense than **Stephe96** ’s sputtering in this thread. But then, Bricker has a well deserved reputation for knowing the laws he talks about. I hope DeLay gets indicted. In light of previous slaps on the hand for “walking on the edege of ethics”, I can easily imagine him trying to sneak one by. But then, I also have a bit of partisan “baggage” myself. Point of fact… Earle will not indict. He will present a case for indictment, based on evidence. It is the grand jury that will decide whether to indict or not, based on evidence or the lack of it. From there, it will either go to trial or not go to trial. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/159 "2005-09-30T00:59:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But then, Bricker has a well deserved reputation for knowing the laws he talks about. I hope DeLay gets indicted. In light of previous slaps on the hand for “walking on the edege of ethics”, I can easily imagine him trying to sneak one by. But then, I also have a bit of partisan “baggage” myself. > > Point of fact… Earle will not indict. He will present a case for indictment, based on evidence. It is the grand jury that will decide whether to indict or not, based on evidence or the lack of it. From there, it will either go to trial or not go to trial. Welcome to the party! DeLay has already been indicted. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877/160 "2005-09-30T01:00:55Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > From my lips to God’s ears, as they say. Judy Miller is said to be testifying on Friday. > > [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2005/09/29/judy-miller-walks-deve\_n\_8103.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2005/09/29/judy-miller-walks-deve_n_8103.html) I hope so. Rove’s alleged crime would be (to me) the most serious one of the bunch. Not knowing the exact legal term, I will just call it “deliberately compromising national security for personal gain”. That’s heinous, egregious, and lots of other fancy words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/delay-indicted/323877.md?page=9)