I in no way suggested anyone leave the board.
But we all have that option.
Indeed.
And, even if deliberate racism isn’t classed as hate speech, note the additional sections I quoted above, which say that posters must remain civil; that purposely inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated; and that the moderators can tell posters to refrain from behavior that the moderators regard as uncivil or that in the view of the moderators detracts from productive discussion – and that if the poster doesn’t so refrain they can be banned.
If the moderators regard deliberate racism as civil and think that it doesn’t detract from productive discussion, I disagree with them vehemently on both counts.
That I thought I was choosing a table where polite manners and common courtesy are required; and that there appears to me to be plenty of evidence in the terms of agreement that they’re supposed to be.
What was yours?
You think anyone’s under the illusion that they can’t leave, anytime they want? That this was Earth-shattering news to me?
So what was the point of bringing it up, if not to say “stop complaining”?
I didn’t say it was your position. I was talking about Princhester’s position. You are arguing that his position was valid, and I was saying it isn’t.
That said, for a position you don’t hold, you have since written a lot of posts defending that position. If you don’t think posts like in the OP should be allowed, why are you making so many arguments saying that such should be okay? Why are you telling people they should leave if they don’t like such posts?
The only way I can be charitable is to assume that the analogy got away from you, and you thus didn’t realize the implications of your argument—that posters who have been here longer than you have should leave if they don’t want to tolerate racists.
never mind
I’m a bit confused with all the different analogies, too. A recap of where I stand
- deliberate racism is contrary to polite manners and common courtesy
- Café Society rules require polite manners and common courtesy
- deliberate racism should be modded in the Café Society
- A town/community that allows racist discriminatory practices to go unpunished is racist
- A community that by and large expresses strong disagreement with racist speech, yet won't actually suppress it, is not collectively racist for tolerating racism.
- An informal supper club which by and large expresses strong disagreement with racist speech, yet won't actually expel the racist, is not collectively racist for tolerating racism.
- If club rules require polite manners and common courtesy at some tables, it follows that deliberate racism is prohibited at those tables.
- A person who does not wish to deal with racism should, when given the choice, sit at such tables.
- Even when at such a table, there is always the chance that a person will break the rules and say racist things. This risk is inherent when you have an open seating policy and the club is open to the public.
Now this last point - what if the host doesn’t do anything when you report someone being racist at your table, despite club rules requiring polite manners and common courtesy? If the host acknowledges the racism, and the rules, and does nothing - I’m not going to defend the host at that point. It follows logically that the host believes racism is polite and courteous, which I strongly disagree with.
~Max
It is really shitty to tell a person of color that they need to not get so worked up about racism. It is condescending AF to tell someone they need to calm down because you’re “worried about their health.”
The PIt is irrelevant in this conversation. It is not the forum being discussed. We are talking about what is allowed in Cafe Society. And you just argued that, if a poster is against racism in Cafe Society, they should leave the board.
That would only make sure racism continues. Those of us who believe it is wrong will fight it everywhere. No place is unimportant enough that racism should be permitted.
No I didn’t. I even agreed that post mentioned in the Op should have been modded.
So, you’re admitting you posted your super-insightful observation on potential egresses for no actual good reason (referring to all that Canute guff you’ve subsequently edited out).
My health is just fine, including my mental health, thanks for your … concern. I’m not “worked up”, that’s the kind of shield that having no real hopes of improvement gets me. So that attempt at tone-policing-through-ersatz-concern is not flying.
I get on OK with the mods, even with all my complaining. I’ve never been suspended, not even once never mind multiple times, haven’t even been warned for a long while - I don’t think your path is my path.
What do you mean, “too”?
I argued that you and @Princhester were talking at cross purposes, which I think you largely were (and are). As he hasn’t returned yet,
In my opinion this is the only point in that post which bears directly on @Princhester’s position. I do find it convincing. Your other points fall flat IMO. Specifically,
The goal of heckling wouldn’t be punishment, it would be to communicate the community’s disapproval of racism. So when you point out that heckling isn’t a severe punishment, that is an irrelevant counter.
The desired effect is not to stop a particular person, it is to signal that the community at large disapproves of racism.
I’m sure some counterprotesters at Neo Nazi rallies hope to shame Neo Nazis into dropping their ideology, but that’s like a pipe dream. It’s more reasonable to go with the purpose of communicating that you and the community at large stand in solidarity with Jews, Roma, Poles, etc.
~Max
The best way to signal such disapproval is to hit the Report button, say Aw fuck, looks like they got banned, then forget that that particular racist ever existed.
There was a time where the board was a consistant repository of posts targeting ill will towards any thing related to black people (like Americans, Haitians, or especially people across the earth in Africa… all the same story and same gripes). I was surprised how everyone wouldn’t explode in rage at what seemed like …bot posts repeating a near/close set script of talking points of racial topics they had no clue about, nor any interest in learning about. Like almost word-for-word racialist talking points adapted from the 1930’s or something (where did they get them???)
This community has changed (for the better) in many ways. However I’ll never forget the sheer amount of tolerance that was given to (what at times seemed like daily) nakedly racist posts by these spreaders of targeted ill will.
Was this during one of the times that denizens from Stormfront invaded us?
Oh, I’m sure it was worse then. I’m just talking about the racialists.
IMHO, the goal is to reduce the amount of racist material in Café Society. Not to signal disapproval with said posts. So I endorse reporting racist posts. And if the mods fail to act on certain racist posts, well, we may have failed, or the rules we are supposed to enforce may be flawed. In either case, ATMB is a fine place to mention those issues.
That’s got me thinking about what jerk means.
Back in nineteen ninety-whatever, it was perceived by the general public as funny or edgy or ha-ha-I-didn’t-really-mean-it-but-I-kinda-did to make cracks about blacks or Mexicans or muslims. Women were fair game for most any abuse. And transgender folk were punchlines.
But this is 2022. We, as a society, have moved on from all of that. We are better now, more mindful. I dearly hope that jerk isn’t fossilized in its nineteen ninety-whatever definition.
This is the problem. Both racist speech and discriminatory actions are wrong. In fact, racist speech is a discriminatory action, as it has a purpose. It (1) treats people of different races differently, (2) promotes racist actions and (3) actively hurts and discourages people of other races to participate.
One issue with treating a messageboard as a town is that there are issues at play with a town that don’t exist on a messageboard. The government has enacted freedom of speech to allow people to advocate political positions that the ruling party does not agree with. As a consequence of that, towns are restricted in what their governments can do to stop racist speech. That is why everyone in said town, including those in charge, can be against racist speech, but be unable to stop it.
This does not apply to a message board. The mods here are not so restricted. So, if they do not ban racist speech, they will be seen as supporting said speech. Even if the rest of the community says it is wrong, and fights hard against it, the fact that those in charge won’t use their power to stop it results in the message board being de facto racist, even if that is not what the moderators intend. Those posters have no reason to not post racist things, and thus there will continue to be racism on the board.
A message board, when you boil it down, is just speech. So the content of said message board is what determines if it is or is not racist. Our message board is unusual in that it does not delete posts that have been moderated, as a form of transparency. (Personally, I wish said posts would at least be hidden. Mods can do this on Discourse, I believe) So the closest to removing the racism that a mod can do is punish the poster who posts it, so that they either have to stop, or they will no longer be allowed to post on the board.
People who claim they believe something is wrong but then do not use the power they have to try and stop it are at best lying to themselves about what they believe. It’s literally why I, as someone who is not racist, was duty bound to make this thread. Those who have the means have the responsibility.
You know, what I already said in my OPt. And you didn’t argue against it originally. You in fact found a way to agree with me. I was genuinely shocked that you had that level of awareness of racial issues. But then you threw it down the drain to defend a poster’s position who you claim you disagree with.
I remember being told “Well, if we don’t allow them here, they’ll just go somewhere else and do it. Can’t stop or hide them. Sunshine and yadada” … like good! They should leave. Their racism is toxic here.
A xociety which wishes not to be racist needs not to say that racism is perfectly fine as long as it’s only openly expressed at some tables.
Why only in Café Society?
Some of us have.
Other portions of the society are trying hard to yank it in the other direction. This is not a safely finished issue.
I wouldn’t mind their being blurred; but I agree that they shouldn’t be deleted. Making it clear that one’s words here don’t disappear is IMO very useful for multiple reasons.