# Demjanjuk gets 94 minutes per Jew? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812 "2011-05-13T18:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/21 "2011-05-13T23:35:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The time to kill Nazis was _during the Holocaust._ Or while playing _Return to Castle Wolfenstein_. Either is a good time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/22 "2011-05-14T00:15:52Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Many, many, many people risked their lives in opposition to what the Nazis were doing. Well-known names such as Oskar Schindler, Charles de Gaulle, Jean Moulin; lesser-known names such as [Franz Jägerstätter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_J%C3%A4gerst%C3%A4tter) (who _did_ sacrifice his own life so as not to have the blood of hundreds of thousands on his own hands) and unknown names of the hundreds of everyday people who risked their own lives to save others. How about [Goering’s brother](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_goering)? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/23 "2011-05-14T00:33:07Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > That’s easy for you to say. You never had to spend any time in a German POW camp. HUGE motherfucking difference between a POW camp and a concentration camp. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/24 "2011-05-14T00:54:41Z")
This may be muddying the waters of my own thread, but what I assume MOIDALIZE is getting at is the details of Demjanjuk’s story. He’s not German, he’s Ukrainian. If I understand it right, he was captured by the Germans on the Eastern Front and then somehow opted to become a prison camp guard rather than a prisoner. I don’t know the details of his particular transition, but it’s not implausible – the Nazis employed prisoners and foreigners, even POWs, in a number of specialized units during the war. The [Kaminsky Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminski_Brigade) was an infamous unit of Eastern Front prisoners who volunteered to serve the Reich; the [Dirlewanger Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade) was initially intended to be formed from convicted poachers, who would employ their supposed hunting and tracking skills against Eastern Front partisans; eventually it contained concentration camp inmates and much more serious criminals such as rapists and murderers. Soviet prisoners of war held in Germany (and Ukrainians had “officially” fought on the Soviet side in the war, although many of them fought against the Russians when they got a chance) had a dismal survival rate; the Nazis worked them, but withheld food and pretty much deliberately made conditions fatally harsh, and millions of them died in captivity. I would expect Demjanjuk’s defense is “it was either risk death as a prisoner or inflict it as a guard.” With the caveat that I’ve not had to face that choice myself, I don’t think it was the right thing to do. And of course it’s quite possible he was more willing than he now lets on – antisemitism was not limited to Nazis. It appears, at least, that he wasn’t _just_ “there,” but a participant in camp operations. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/25 "2011-05-14T01:59:23Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > According to multiple sources, there is no statute of limitations on murder in Germany. > > Murder penalties are state by state in the US, but only in very few circumstances is a judge required to sentence a convict to life without parole, or to 99 years. > > Try getting your knowledge of the US criminal justice system from sources more credible than folk songs. > > The Demjanjuk trial was a crock of showboating, self-righteous shit. If what he was accused of is murder, then half the adult male population of Germany should have died in prison. It’s pretty much \*\*constanze’s \*\*M.O. to be an ultra-nationalist douche bag that talks about how on every single issue in the world Germany does it perfectly and America is terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/26 "2011-05-14T02:10:29Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Bullshit. Half the adult male German population did not work in positions of power in death camps. Oooh, I stand corrected, it couldn’t have been more than 43%. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/27 "2011-05-14T02:17:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s pretty much \*\*constanze’s \*\*M.O. to be an ultra-nationalist douche bag that talks about how on every single issue in the world Germany does it perfectly and America is terrible. Then how come they lost the Big One? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/28 "2011-05-14T19:10:39Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > According to multiple sources, there is no statute of limitations on murder in Germany. You’re right, I should have been clearer and looked up the details first: Murder does not have a statue of limitations, but Totschlag (homicide/manslaughter) does expire after 20 years. There used to be a limitation on murder after 20 yeras, however, in a famous debate in 1965 the German parliament, the Bundestag, first prolonged that limitation on Nazi crimes for some years. Then, when it became obvious that even 30 years would not be enough time for proper prosecution and trial, it was prolonged for 10 years, and finally, limitation on all murders, including non-Nazi ones, was lifted. This debate was what I (mis-) remembered; you can read more [here.](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verj%C3%A4hrungsdebatte) (German) > [@](#): > > Murder penalties are state by state in the US, but only in very few circumstances is a judge required to sentence a convict to life without parole, or to 99 years. > > Try getting your knowledge of the US criminal justice system from sources more credible than folk songs. I didn’t say that judges are required to do so; but there are many cases reported int he media where a criminal is given mulitple life sentences, going even beyond 99 years. Are you denying that this happens often enough that both US and foreign media report on it, or do you claim that all those reports are wrong? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/29 "2011-05-14T19:13:19Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Many, many, many people risked their lives in opposition to what the Nazis were doing. Well-known names such as Oskar Schindler, Charles de Gaulle, Jean Moulin; lesser-known names such as [Franz Jägerstätter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_J%C3%A4gerst%C3%A4tter) (who _did_ sacrifice his own life so as not to have the blood of hundreds of thousands on his own hands) and unknown names of the hundreds of everyday people who risked their own lives to save others. No doubt about that, and yes, these people who resisted despite the danger to themselves are heroes. However, the courts distinguish between the moral duty to do what’s right, and what the law expects of you. The courts usually don’t expect you to risk your own life to save somebody else, regardless of what your moral duty would be. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/30 "2011-05-14T19:18:26Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I don’t know the details of his particular transition, but it’s not implausible – the Nazis employed prisoners and foreigners, even POWs, in a number of specialized units during the war. The [Kaminsky Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminski_Brigade) was an infamous unit of Eastern Front prisoners who volunteered to serve the Reich; the [Dirlewanger Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade) was initially intended to be formed from convicted poachers, who would employ their supposed hunting and tracking skills against Eastern Front partisans; eventually it contained concentration camp inmates and much more serious criminals such as rapists and murderers. Yes, and not only POWs: huge areas and population groups in Eastern Europe were antisemitic at the same time, and eagerly formed regiments of their own to get rid of the Jews in their countries when the Nazis conquered their country. > [@](#): > > I would expect Demjanjuk’s defense is “it was either risk death as a prisoner or inflict it as a guard.” With the caveat that I’ve not had to face that choice myself, I don’t think it was the right thing to do. The standards of the justice system are lower in cases where your own life is threatend. From what the news have reported his defense attorney saying, however, his defense is “You can’t prove that I personally was involved in the killing, I was only there as guard, and it’s against all legal principles to convict me based simply on being a member of a group (the guards)”. > [@](#): > > It appears, at least, that he wasn’t _just_ “there,” but a participant in camp operations. That’s what the accusation has to prove. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/31 "2011-05-14T19:20:49Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s pretty much \*\*constanze’s \*\*M.O. to be an ultra-nationalist douche bag that talks about how on every single issue in the world Germany does it perfectly and America is terrible. Insult me all you like, but I strongly reject and resent being called an ultra-nationalist. Nowhere in this thread have I given my opinion on this, I’ve only tried to explain the differences in the legal system. If that makes me a douche bag to you, okay, but I’m not a nationalist. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/32 "2011-05-14T20:02:00Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > This may be muddying the waters of my own thread, but what I assume MOIDALIZE is getting at is the details of Demjanjuk’s story. He’s not German, he’s Ukrainian. If I understand it right, he was captured by the Germans on the Eastern Front and then somehow opted to become a prison camp guard rather than a prisoner. > > I don’t know the details of his particular transition, but it’s not implausible – the Nazis employed prisoners and foreigners, even POWs, in a number of specialized units during the war. The [Kaminsky Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminski_Brigade) was an infamous unit of Eastern Front prisoners who volunteered to serve the Reich; the [Dirlewanger Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade) was initially intended to be formed from convicted poachers, who would employ their supposed hunting and tracking skills against Eastern Front partisans; eventually it contained concentration camp inmates and much more serious criminals such as rapists and murderers. > > Soviet prisoners of war held in Germany (and Ukrainians had “officially” fought on the Soviet side in the war, although many of them fought against the Russians when they got a chance) had a dismal survival rate; the Nazis worked them, but withheld food and pretty much deliberately made conditions fatally harsh, and millions of them died in captivity. > > I would expect Demjanjuk’s defense is “it was either risk death as a prisoner or inflict it as a guard.” With the caveat that I’ve not had to face that choice myself, I don’t think it was the right thing to do. And of course it’s quite possible he was more willing than he now lets on – antisemitism was not limited to Nazis. > > It appears, at least, that he wasn’t _just_ “there,” but a participant in camp operations. There is an **abundance** of evidence, including eye-witness testimony, that he was more than “just there”. Demjanjuk was a registered member of the ‘Trawniki Unit’, which was made up of men who “willingly signed up to help implement Operation Reinhard, the German plan to dispose of all Jews in Poland.” [Examining the Case Against John Demjanjuk](http://adventurebooks.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/09/2796845-examining-the-case-against-john-demjanjuk) He **volunteered** to go be a “guard” where they were murdering Jews and other minorities and “unfavorables”. And I don’t frankly give a shit if he’d get better meals as an SS guard than as a prisoner. Making that choice makes him complicit in every death that occurred on his “watch”. Remember, I had a grandfather-in-law who made the opposite choice. He chose being a POW over participating in the murder of innocent human beings. Demjanjuk is a piece of filth. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/33 "2011-05-14T20:50:53Z")
My felicitations to your grandfather-in-law. With respect to you, I really don’t think being so righteous is called for here. Being a guard on its own was never recognised as being sufficient for punishment nor was volunteering (as being a guard was a non combat role) you have to actually do something to be guilty. Is there any evidence that he actually killed anyone unlawfully? Or aided or abetted someone? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/34 "2011-05-14T21:06:45Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > And I don’t frankly give a shit if he’d get better meals as an SS guard than as a prisoner. 57% of Soviet POWs in German hands died. I don’t think “better meals” was the issue. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/35 "2011-05-14T21:12:10Z")
This case has been going on for 25 years. It’s interesting in looking at the wiki bibliography that there do not appear to be any books on the case. Just lots of articles. In reading the wiki I can understand people being somewhat hesitant to condemn him given the US prosecutors near criminal misbehavior in the initial case in the 80’s and 90’s. Has any comprehensive analysis been done of this entire case? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/36 "2011-05-14T22:35:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > My felicitations to your grandfather-in-law. With respect to you, I really don’t think being so righteous is called for here. Being a guard on its own was never recognised as being sufficient for punishment nor was volunteering (as being a guard was a non combat role) you have to actually do something to be guilty. Is there any evidence that he actually killed anyone unlawfully? Or aided or abetted someone? Are you shitting me? He prevented people from escaping their deaths by aiding in **imprisoning them**. He’s complicit. FULL STOP. > [@cckerberos](#): > > 57% of Soviet POWs in German hands died. I don’t think “better meals” was the issue. I guess you didn’t bother to read the link I provided, did you? Lazy jerk. "Previous testimony from others who were at Trawniki show that everyone knew what their job was to be: Human extermination through a series of death camps that were just being established. **These Ukrainians received better food, better treatment, ranks, official leaves from duty, and guns.**" I can’t fucking _believe_ some of you people. Jesus _fuck_, you apologists make me sick. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/37 "2011-05-15T01:16:07Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Are you shitting me? > > He prevented people from escaping their deaths by aiding in **imprisoning them**. He’s complicit. FULL STOP. I guess you didn’t bother to read the link I provided, did you? Lazy jerk. > "Previous testimony from others who were at Trawniki show that everyone knew what their job was to be: Human extermination through a series of death camps that were just being established. > > **These Ukrainians received better food, better treatment, ranks, official leaves from duty, and guns.**" > I can’t fucking _believe_ some of you people. Jesus _fuck_, you apologists make me sick. I don’t know that people are being apologists or Nazi enablers, Nazis are evil, we get it. There are some issues which give people pause in going after him full bore. The first run at him ended in a complete clusterfuck because of US prosecutorial misconduct. This took 10 years from 1983 to 1993, part of which time he was on Israel’s death row. In 1999 they ramp the charges up against him again, and he is 79 years old. Now after another 12 years of prosecution, at the age of 91 they manage to convince a German court that he was there in some capacity as a low level guard, obeying the orders of the camp bosses, presumably because he wanted to stay alive. To dial him to 11 as the apex of Nazi evil supervillans in this context because he was “complicit” seems a bit over the top. To continue to chase after him at this stage, when he is a feeble 91 year man teetering on deaths door does not seem to be as much about justice as it is about pure vengance. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/38 "2011-05-15T01:37:27Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > Obviously, German sentences are concurrent, not cumulative. Obviously, the German reputation for efficiency extends to their sentencing guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/39 "2011-05-15T02:18:54Z")
> [@astro](#): > > . . . and he is 79 years old. What the hell does his age have to do with anything? Do you think the Nazis didn’t murder anyone over, say, 51? Fuck this is getting asinine. > [@astro](#): > > . . . at the age of 91 Again with the age crap. > [@astro](#): > > . . .they manage to convince a German court that he was there in some capacity as a low level guard, obeying the orders of the camp bosses, presumably because he wanted to stay alive. He sacrificed innocent human beings to a torturous death so save his own selfish hide and you play the “he was only following orders” card. Disgusting. > [@astro](#): > > To continue to chase after him at this stage, when he is a feeble 91 year man teetering on deaths door does not seem to be as much about justice as it is about pure vengance. You just don’t get it, do you? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812/40 "2011-05-15T02:30:08Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > He prevented people from escaping their deaths by aiding in **imprisoning them**. He’s complicit. FULL STOP. I must agree with that, and frankly, I don’t see why everyone else doesn’t. > [@Some one else](#): > > of which time he was on Israel’s death row. Seems like he should have had a silenced .22 accident by now. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/demjanjuk-gets-94-minutes-per-jew/581812.md?page=3)