# Democracy? I think not! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353 "2007-12-09T04:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/21 "2007-12-09T18:13:39Z")
[QUOTE=justanoldvet] Shot myself in the foot with that on, huh? Really though.. in considering the disparity between min. wage ( which is by no means a “living wage” ). and what the average politician pulls in, or even the yearly increase .. and you get what I was trying to say. It seems every year the disparity between the haves and have nots get wider.. In my life time, I’ve seen the “middle class” virtually vanish. [/QUOTE] I think you just shot yourself in the other foot. Can you define what you mean by “middle class”, do some research into how many Americans fall in that category and get back to us? Because unless you have some ridiculously inflated idea of what it means to be middle class, you will find that the majority of Americans are in that class. Having a few more rich people doesn’t make middle class people any less middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/22 "2007-12-09T18:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Actually, I believe the U.S. is a Representative Democracy. [/QUOTE] I always thought that the U.S. is a Constitutional Republic. The Constitution carriers more weight than any given group of representatives elected democratically. It can be amended but it is very difficult by design. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/23 "2007-12-09T19:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=justanoldvet] Why does everyone refer to the United States and its government as a Democracy? When it was clearly in the Constitution to be a REPUBLIC? [/QUOTE] 🙂 Thank you for putting your finger on the problem so succinctly! Yes, the United States is a republic, not a democracy. That is **exactly** what is wrong with it! ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/24 "2007-12-09T19:24:22Z")
[QUOTE=justanoldvet] But.. Back then, only White, Land Owning Males could vote.. which, to my way of thinking, would make a Democracy utterly impossible in any case, as it disenfranchised so much of the population. No ? [/QUOTE] Well, it depends on how you define ‘democracy’. I guess I would define it as “Legislation is passed by direct majority vote of the majority of eligible voters.” Nowadays, ‘eligible voters’ means non-felons ages 18+. In the olden days, it meant male land-owning honkies. In Athens it meant whatever the hell it meant. So you might not classify those as democracies. But the point is that the founding fathers were absolutely explicit that they did not want direct governance by the people–not even just by male land-owning honkies. They thought that the people were too ill-informed, too likely to be lead by their passions, etc., etc. Hell, if we had a direct democracy, I think there is some non-zero chance we would have nuked the Middle East after 9-11. The founding fathers, whatever their faults, recognized this, and so set up an intermediary between the people and legislation–namely, the elected representatives of the legislative houses of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/25 "2007-12-09T19:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 🙂 Thank you for putting your finger on the problem so succinctly! Yes, the United States is a republic, not a democracy. That is **exactly** what is wrong with it! [/QUOTE] Oh, Jesus, if there is anything worse than Congress passing laws, it would have to be all my relatives in Texas passing laws. :shudders: No one anywhere would be safe. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/26 "2007-12-09T19:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=justanoldvet] It seems every year the disparity between the haves and have nots get wider.. In my life time, I’ve seen the “middle class” virtually vanish. [/QUOTE] Well, is that actually true? Are you saying there’s no middle class in the United States? That’s an amazing statement, given the number of middle class Americans I know and see walking around every time I’m in the USA. They’re not exactly a rare breed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/27 "2007-12-09T19:31:19Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 🙂 Thank you for putting your finger on the problem so succinctly! Yes, the United States is a republic, not a democracy. That is **exactly** what is wrong with it! [/QUOTE] Given your politics, I would think you would be thankful that we have a republican brake on the whims of the masses. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/28 "2007-12-09T19:45:13Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Well, is that actually true? Are you saying there’s no middle class in the United States? That’s an amazing statement, given the number of middle class Americans I know and see walking around every time I’m in the USA. They’re not exactly a rare breed. [/QUOTE] Well I think (and this is a pretty uneducated opinion) that ‘middle class’ has changed meaning. 50 years ago, I would be middle class. But now, I am the sole wage-earner of a three-person household, with a PhD, teaching at a liberal arts college in New England, and trying to deal with a budgetary shortfall of around $1,000 per month. It’s become very difficult to be middle class with one income any more, the way one once could. People may think they have the same standard of living, but they are doing it on two incomes. ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/29 "2007-12-09T19:46:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think you just shot yourself in the other foot. Can you define what you mean by “middle class”, do some research into how many Americans fall in that category and get back to us? Because unless you have some ridiculously inflated idea of what it means to be middle class, you will find that the majority of Americans are in that class. Having a few more rich people doesn’t make middle class people any less middle class. [/QUOTE] OUCH! That being said, and I admit I lack anything in the way of objective proof, having only my own observations.. but “back in my day”, the average Joe could/would work one job, wife stayed home and took care of the kids and house, and were fairly well off, with a “buick in every garage”, so to speak. Now, usually both work, and both incomes often are not enough to make ends meet. Jobs, especially manufacturing and so forth, tend to be relocating overseas, and so forth and so on. Back in my day, you could find just about everything you needed “made in America” ; now.. you can BARELY find anything that doesn’t come from China, etc. ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/30 "2007-12-09T19:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 🙂 Thank you for putting your finger on the problem so succinctly! Yes, the United States is a republic, not a democracy. That is **exactly** what is wrong with it! [/QUOTE] ~bows~ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/31 "2007-12-09T19:52:31Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Given your politics, I would think you would be thankful that we have a republican brake on the whims of the masses. 😛 [/QUOTE] I know, I know, but it was too good not to use. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/32 "2007-12-09T20:01:31Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] Well I think (and this is a pretty uneducated opinion) that ‘middle class’ has changed meaning. 50 years ago, I would be middle class. But now, I am the sole wage-earner of a three-person household, with a PhD, teaching at a liberal arts college in New England, and trying to deal with a budgetary shortfall of around $1,000 per month. It’s become very difficult to be middle class with one income any more, the way one once could. People may think they have the same standard of living, but they are doing it on two incomes. [/QUOTE] Without even knowing you, I can guarantee you are middle class from that description. What I think has changed is our aspirations-- the size of a house we want, and the number of toys we have, etc. Don’t take this personally, but the fact that you’re $1000 in the hole each month is more likely an indication that you are living beyond your means, not that you aren’t middle class. It wouldn’t surprise me if the middle class is slightly smaller than it was 50 years, but I’ve got to see some actual data before I’m going to accept that it is significantly smaller or that it has virtually ceased to exist. [This article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#Shrinking_Middle_Class) in wikipedia suggests that if the middle class is getting smaller, it’s most likely because more people are moving up the income ladder, not down. > [@](#): > > Households that earn between $25,000 and $75,000 represent approximately the middle half of the income distribution tables provided by the U.S. Census Bureau. Over the past two decades, the number of households in those brackets decreased from 48.2% to 44.3% while at the same time the number of households overall increased almost 30%. During the same time period, the number of households with incomes below $25,000 decreased slightly from 28.7% to 25.2% while the number of households with incomes above $75,000 increased over 7%, from 23.2% to 30.4%. A possible explanation for the increase in the higher earnings categories is the fact that many households contain two wage earners. However, a closer analysis reveals all of the 7% increase can be found in households who earn over $100,000 and in particular the people that constitute the elite class. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/33 "2007-12-09T20:06:55Z")
I’ve made this point before but republic and democracy are not contradictory terms. It’s like asking if a person is left-handed or red-headed - the answer may be either or both or neither. The United States is both a democracy and a republic. The United Kingdom is a democracy and is not a republic. Cuba is a republic and is not a democracy. Saudi Arabia is neither a democracy or a republic. ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/34 "2007-12-09T20:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] Well, it depends on how you define ‘democracy’. I guess I would define it as “Legislation is passed by direct majority vote of the majority of eligible voters.” Nowadays, ‘eligible voters’ means non-felons ages 18+. In the olden days, it meant male land-owning honkies. In Athens it meant whatever the hell it meant. So you might not classify those as democracies. But the point is that the founding fathers were absolutely explicit that they did not want direct governance by the people–not even just by male land-owning honkies. They thought that the people were too ill-informed, too likely to be lead by their passions, etc., etc. Hell, if we had a direct democracy, I think there is some non-zero chance we would have nuked the Middle East after 9-11. The founding fathers, whatever their faults, recognized this, and so set up an intermediary between the people and legislation–namely, the elected representatives of the legislative houses of Congress. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t the idea ( both then and now ) that " they know what’s best .. for US " ? Kinda like the Gov. is acting like parents to/for the masses/children ? ( geez.. that’s about as inarticulate as hell . Hope you get what I mean ) The people being " too ill-informed", " not knowing what they REALLY want/need", passionate, etc seems to me to be elitist and condescending. Whom the hells is the Gov. to tell me what’s best for me? As an adult, I would like to think I can make that decision for myself.. and if I’m wrong, I am willing to accept the consequences of my wrong decision. I don’t need, or want, the Gubbment telling me to buckle up, wipe my nose and otherwise treating me like a four year old. .. “Trust us, we know what’s best for you”… But I digress. Realistically, do you not think it is possible that “The Masses” could be presented with as much OBJECTIVE information as possible, and a vote held, and things would not be better than they are now? If we were to actually have a Democracy, would things like the infamous “bridge to nowhere”, and other pork slipped into bills, etc be so prevalent? Would there be 9 Billion ( and counting ) in graft in Iraq? Would there even be a War, if we, the People, had been told facts ( such as there were no WMD, that NONE of the terrorists were from Iraq, etc,etc ad nausea, and allowed to vote? Yes, passions and emotions and tempers were high.. but I’d like to think that the majority of the people are thoughtful, intelligent and would have been calm and dispassionate enough to have seen the proposal for war as what it was/is. ( a VERY BAD IDEA ( keep in mind I say this as someone that has spent nearly their entire adult life in the military ). I don’t understand what makes our “leaders” supposedly smarter, wiser, whatever: are they not people, like everyone else? Frankly, any time I hear " we know what’s best" it makes my teeth itch and my blood run cold. ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/35 "2007-12-09T20:14:44Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Well, is that actually true? Are you saying there’s no middle class in the United States? That’s an amazing statement, given the number of middle class Americans I know and see walking around every time I’m in the USA. They’re not exactly a rare breed. [/QUOTE] Hmmmmm Maybe the term “middle class” means something different to me. I think, to me, middle class means a nuclear family, with Male being the financial provider, the Female tending the home, which they own. not wealthy, but making a decent living, making the mortgage and meeting their financial obligations without undue hardship. ( grossly over-simplified, and no doubt sexist as hell, but there ya go ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/36 "2007-12-09T20:18:25Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] I always thought that the U.S. is a Constitutional Republic. The Constitution carriers more weight than any given group of representatives elected democratically. It can be amended but it is very difficult by design. [/QUOTE] ~nods vigorously~ I think most folk believe that America is a Democracy because that’s what they have been told.. but that doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/37 "2007-12-09T20:23:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] Well I think (and this is a pretty uneducated opinion) that ‘middle class’ has changed meaning. 50 years ago, I would be middle class. But now, I am the sole wage-earner of a three-person household, with a PhD, teaching at a liberal arts college in New England, and trying to deal with a budgetary shortfall of around $1,000 per month. It’s become very difficult to be middle class with one income any more, the way one once could. People may think they have the same standard of living, but they are doing it on two incomes. [/QUOTE] I think you may have touched on what I meant. Middle Class, to me anyway, meant a single wage earner, et al.. as I expounded earlier. Now it takes two incomes, and there is still not enough to make ends meet for a great many folks. The American Dream of owning your own home has become an impossibility for a great many. Yes, earning may be up.. but it takes twice the number of people/wage earners to make the same amount, in terms of buying power, etc. ---
**Author:** ![justanoldvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@justanoldvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justanoldvet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/38 "2007-12-09T20:26:03Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’ve made this point before but republic and democracy are not contradictory terms. It’s like asking if a person is left-handed or red-headed - the answer may be either or both or neither. The United States is both a democracy and a republic. The United Kingdom is a democracy and is not a republic. Cuba is a republic and is not a democracy. Saudi Arabia is neither a democracy or a republic. [/QUOTE] You lost me. How can it be both? In a Democracy, everyone (eligible) gets an equal say.. in a Republic, the “ruling class”/“representatives” /whatever term you care to use gets to make the real choices. Is this not so , at least in general, over-simplified terms? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/39 "2007-12-09T20:26:49Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’ve made this point before but republic and democracy are not contradictory terms. It’s like asking if a person is left-handed or red-headed - the answer may be either or both or neither. The United States is both a democracy and a republic. The United Kingdom is a democracy and is not a republic. Cuba is a republic and is not a democracy. Saudi Arabia is neither a democracy or a republic. [/QUOTE] Well said. A previous thread that covered some of the same ground: [Is the U.S. a democracy or a republic? [edited title] - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=360252) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353/40 "2007-12-09T20:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’ve made this point before but republic and democracy are not contradictory terms. It’s like asking if a person is left-handed or red-headed - the answer may be either or both or neither. The United States is both a democracy and a republic. The United Kingdom is a democracy and is not a republic. Cuba is a republic and is not a democracy. Saudi Arabia is neither a democracy or a republic. [/QUOTE] How is Cuba a republic? It is under the control of a dictator who punishes any dissent with imprisonment… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-i-think-not/429353.md?page=3)