# Democracy in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191 "2003-03-21T19:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/21 "2003-03-22T18:29:27Z")
_Post Saddam ergo propter Saddam_ ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/22 "2003-03-22T18:39:40Z")
Hm, **elucidator** , you’re hinting at some past history between ol man Kissinger and the kurds… Please enlighten an un-educated Swede on this subject! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/23 "2003-03-22T18:55:49Z")
There are many, this seems the most concise… [http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kurds5.htm](http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kurds5.htm) "…It had happened before. In May 1972, President Nixon and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger met in Tehran with the Shah of Iran. The Shah asked Nixon to arm the Kurds in their struggle against Iraq, his irksome neighbor. On Nixon’s orders, the CIA shipped $16 million in weapons and supplies through Iran to the Kurds. But Washington did not share the Kurds’ dream of independence. The Kurds were only “a uniquely useful tool for weakening Iraq’s potential for international adventurism,” a 1974 CIA memorandum said. In March 1975, as the operation continued under President Ford, the Shah cut a secret deal with Saddam, then Iraq’s vice president and most powerful military man. They would settle a border dispute amicably if Iran would cut off the arms shipments to the Kurdish rebels. Within hours, Iraqi forces attacked the Kurds, who sent an urgent appeal to the CIA. “Intervene according to your promises,” it read. No answer came and thousands died. Kissinger was questioned about the operation by a congressional panel in 1976. “Covert action,” he observed, “should not be confused with missionary work.”… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/24 "2003-03-22T19:00:18Z")
Elucidator, could I ask you a favor, nicely? Would you please drop the **Conan the Canadian** moniker? Childish name calling really have no place on the Straight Dope board. I’m sure the moderators would agree. Let’s try to debate like grownups. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/25 "2003-03-22T19:07:26Z")
Well, the simple request would have been sufficient, a threat to call in moderators is quite unnecessary. Had no idea you were so…delicate, **Sam** As you wish. It was only funny the first four or five times, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/26 "2003-03-22T19:08:11Z")
Thanks for the info, **elucidator**. Doesn’t suprise me at all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/27 "2003-03-22T19:45:48Z")
Sam: You are quite an optimist. I hope you are right. I would not be surprised, contrary to what many in this thread have opined, that we will install a functional democracy and that, in a few years, it spins “out of control”. I don’t think we’ll have the will to stay long enough to enforce our kind of democracy indefinitely. Short term, though, I think things will work out pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/28 "2003-03-22T19:50:45Z")
So this guy falls out a window at the Optimist Club, on the 103rd floor, and as he passes the window you can hear him say “Well, so far, so good.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/29 "2003-03-22T19:56:37Z")
I’m well aware that there are potential problems. These should not prohibit us from trying to achieve the vision I outlined above. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/30 "2003-03-22T20:03:58Z")
Whether they are “potential problems” or “yawning pits of certain doom” remains to be seen. I insist, nonetheless, the a war in order to gain the opportunity to to test the hypothesis is the height of madness. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/31 "2003-03-22T20:40:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*“Iraqi opposition leader says dissidents poised for Saddam’s fall.” \*\*Found it. [http://www.boston.com/dailynews/079/region/Iraqi\_opposition\_leader\_says\_d:.shtml](http://www.boston.com/dailynews/079/region/Iraqi_opposition_leader_says_d:.shtml) > [@](#): > > Iraqi opposition leader says dissidents poised for Saddam’s fall > > By Theo Emery, Associated Press, 3/20/2003 18:45 > > CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) A top Iraqi opposition leader said after years of preparation, long-dormant networks of dissidents within Iraq are mobilizing to pave the way for a democratic Iraq if U.S. forces topple the government of Saddam Hussein. > > Kanan Makiya, a Brandeis University professor and a leading member of the Iraqi National Congress, spoke Thursday from his Cambridge home, thousands of miles from the war that will likely oust his country’s regime within weeks, if not days… And hey, look who’s here! It’s Jimmy Carter! 😃 [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/10/norway.peace/](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/10/norway.peace/) > [@](#): > > Nobel winner Carter’s Iraq warning > Wednesday, December 11, 2002 Posted: 2:22 AM EST (0722 GMT) > > OSLO, Norway (CNN) – Nobel Peace Prize Jimmy Carter has warned of the “catastrophic consequences” of a “preventative” war strategy in Iraq. > > \< snip \> > > But without naming the Bush administration in the United States, Carter said “for powerful countries to adopt a principle of preventive war may well set an example that can have catastrophic consequences…We must remember that today there are at least eight nuclear powers on Earth, and three of them are threatening to their neighbours in terms of international tensions,” said Carter, who did not name the nations in question. [checks [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) for somebody using Iraq war as an excuse to nuke their neighbors] [checks BBC online for somebody using Iraq war as an excuse to nuke their neighbors] [checks GoogleNews for somebody using Iraq war as an excuse to nuke their neighbors] Hmm…Only possibility is North Korea, but they’ve been rattling that saber for so long now that all the shiny gold-plating is wearing off, and the words “PROPERTY OF PYONG-YANG UNIVERSITY DRAMA DEPT.” are clearly visible on the hilt. [http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story\_page/0,5478,6168303%5E663,00.html](http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6168303%255E663,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/32 "2003-03-22T20:53:06Z")
Pakistan, India, and Israel, would be my guess. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191/33 "2003-03-23T02:43:00Z")
Iraqi expatriots support the position of the US? Hold the presses! Perhaps some other insights from the middle east would interest you. From [arabnews.com](http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24103) (Saudi Arabia’s First English Daily): > [@](#): > > Their [the US’] relationship and experience of the place and its people is like the relationship between Michael Jackson and heavyweight boxing, or Mike Tyson’s expertise in belly dance. It is a rather short editorial that describes some of the complexity of Iraq and the middle east, then through analogy explores issues related to the US establishing a democracy there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-iraq/163191.md?page=1)