# Democracy in Saudia Arabia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244 "2004-12-22T23:40:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/1 "2004-12-22T23:40:19Z")
Western powers have the power to influence affairs, but perhaps not the will. Is it time to put pressure on the house of Saud to allow democracy in their country? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/2 "2004-12-22T23:51:58Z")
What reason would the Western powers want to put pressure on the house of Saud to allow democracy in their country? Seriously. This could possibly undermine political stabilty in Saudi Arabia, which if that happened could interrupt oil flowing out of that country. That would be a Bad Thing for the Western powers. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/3 "2004-12-23T00:10:20Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > What reason would the Western powers want to put pressure on the house of Saud to allow democracy in their country? Haven’t you heard? Because _Freedom is on the march!_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/4 "2004-12-23T00:18:30Z")
We’ve had threads on this before. One problem is that there is no significant democracy movement in SA. There’s opposition to the House of Saud – but mainly from Wahhabi religious fanatics who regard the Sauds as too corrupt and impious (even though the Sauds established, and have maintained, Wahhabi Islam as the kingdom’s official religion and ideology). We certainly wouldn’t want to encourage rebellion by **them.** The Sauds are just now beginning to experiment with allowing elections for municipal governments. That could signal the beginning of a process by which democracy might, very gradually, evolve in SA. The best thing the West can do is stand back and let that process work, while offering occasional and very gentle encouragement to speed it along. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/5 "2004-12-23T00:28:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We’ve had threads on this before. One problem is that there is no significant democracy movement in SA. There’s opposition to the House of Saud – but mainly from Wahhabi religious fanatics who regard the Sauds as too corrupt and impious (even though the Sauds established, and have maintained, Wahhabi Islam as the kingdom’s official religion and ideology). We certainly wouldn’t want to encourage rebellion by **them.** The Sauds are just now beginning to experiment with allowing elections for municipal governments. That could signal the beginning of a process by which democracy might, very gradually, evolve in SA. The best thing the West can do is stand back and let that process work, while offering occasional and very gentle encouragement to speed it along. Nor would the US want to see the Wahhabi religious fanatics get more power democratically. The US wouldn’t want to see SA become another Iran. And as the country that Mecca and Medina are located in, I should think the implications of political instability in SA could have on the Islamic world as a Bad Thing. Particularly if arm twisting of the House of Saud were seen by Muslims as causing political chaos in the country that Mecca and Medina are located in. Best to let the Saudis deal with this without outside pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/6 "2004-12-23T04:28:28Z")
Well there is a lot of pros and cons. Pro is of course it is America’s Mission in the world to spread democracy. We like our form of government and honestly think other people should have it too. Con is the philosophical argument that if a country wants to have an absolute monarchy that is their business. If the Saudis seem to like stoning adulterers to death that is their business too. On a more practical matter of realpolitik, we have to remember that ‘one man, one vote’ could easily become ‘one man, one vote, one time.’ Further the simple fact is the Ruling Class here is willing to tolerate the West. The People are less likely to. A representative government here would wage endless war upon the West. On the other hand, we like the idea of representative government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/7 "2004-12-23T04:40:39Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Con is the philosophical argument that if a country wants to have an absolute monarchy that is their business. But what does it mean to say that the “country wants” an absolute monarchy? Certainly the House of Saud wants it, and everybody else is used to it. But in the absence of elections, how can we know what the people would really choose if offered an alternative? And even stating the problem that way raises the contentious question of how to define “the people” in a country where 26% of the population are resident foreigners. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Saudi\_Arabia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saudi_Arabia) Should it matter what kind of government they want, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/8 "2004-12-23T04:48:32Z")
You have good questions. I have no good answers. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/9 "2004-12-23T10:57:31Z")
The problem with all this myopic NeoConservative talk of instilling democracy where it does not yet exist is that two questions invariably go missing:[list[li]Why **exactly** is democracy not there _already_?[/li][li]Can one **guarantee** that the people will be _better off_ with it?[/list][/li] Democracy is the least worst system of government, and I consider myself lucky to have been born under it. But democracy is itself only _realistic_ when certain other _developmental_ criteria have been met. In particular, the population must have advanced **educationally** to the point where they can tell the difference between [true and false democracy](http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/m/mill/john_stuart/m645r/chapter7.html). If there is still a widespread sectarian, tribal or “them and us” attitude, each faction will simply view democracy as a means to _dominate_ rather than _govern_ (to represent _themselves_ rather than _all_ in Mill’s parlance), and the dread spectre of instability and civil war will rise where some other non-democratic system might have kept it suppressed until that magic educational threshold had been reached. The best weapons democracy has against monarchy or dictatorship are not threats and sanctions, but radio waves and internet connections. The [BBC World Service](http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/worldservice/psims/ScheduleSDT.cgi?Pg=Fp&Rn=MIDE:Middle%20East) does as much to promote and ultimately acheive democracy as aggression and ‘pressure’ ever will. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/10 "2004-12-23T12:04:25Z")
SM, you may be right, but is this not simply a well-reasoned and well-written version of “Them there people are incapable of self-government?” ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/11 "2004-12-23T12:06:15Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > The problem with all this myopic NeoConservative talk of instilling democracy where it does not yet exist is that two questions invariably go missing:[list[li]Why **exactly** is democracy not there _already_?[/li][li]Can one **guarantee** that the people will be _better off_ with it?[/list][/li] > Democracy is the least worst system of government, and I consider myself lucky to have been born under it. But democracy is itself only _realistic_ when certain other _developmental_ criteria have been met. In particular, the population must have advanced **educationally** to the point where they can tell the difference between [true and false democracy](http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/m/mill/john_stuart/m645r/chapter7.html). > > If there is still a widespread sectarian, tribal or “them and us” attitude, each faction will simply view democracy as a means to _dominate_ rather than _govern_ (to represent _themselves_ rather than _all_ in Mill’s parlance), and the dread spectre of instability and civil war will rise where some other non-democratic system might have kept it suppressed until that magic educational threshold had been reached. > > The best weapons democracy has against monarchy or dictatorship are not threats and sanctions, but radio waves and internet connections. The [BBC World Service](http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/worldservice/psims/ScheduleSDT.cgi?Pg=Fp&Rn=MIDE:Middle%20East) does as much to promote and ultimately acheive democracy as aggression and ‘pressure’ ever will. Absolutely. Remember how the Polish Trade Union protests, combined with information flowing into the Soviet Union led to a peaceful change of Government. As for the NeoConservatives, they’re not myopic. They know there’s **oil** in Saudi Arabia. :rolleyes: If they were bothered about democracy, they’d invade Burma. Someone should tell Bush that the military there overthrew the democratically elected Government. Not that he’d be interested. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/12 "2004-12-23T12:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > SM, you may be right, but is this not simply a well-reasoned and well-written version of “Them there people are incapable of self-government?” As Mill’s Chapter 7 describes, ‘self-government’ is not necessarily equivalent to ‘representative democracy’. I would paraphrase your version thus: “Them there people are capable of self-government, but not **yet** capable of representative democracy”. If this is agreed, we must ask whether a transition to _flawed_ democracy is any _better_ than the current situation, given the inherent risk of instability and civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/13 "2004-12-23T14:49:57Z")
If I’m not mistaken, there are only two countries in the world where democracy has succesfully been forced on a country through outside force: Germany and Japan. [Here’s](http://www.armback.se/saudi.htm) an article from **the Atlantic Monthly** that deals in SA and current issues. Read it and be afraid. Be very afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/14 "2004-12-23T17:53:49Z")
**TheGaspode** An very good article. Gives an excellent observation. It always amazed me that all of this seems to be out of focus in the “general thinking” in the USA. Especially since crying about “democracy” (lately it is “bringing democracy”) is so high on the list of the US government’s rethoric when it comes to other nations (I don’t agree with the author’s - mild - suggestion that Bandur was on some sort of a sideline during the Clinton administration). The US is so good at painting the shortcomings of “evil dictatorships” when it is of political/economical convenience to do so. Except Saudi Arabia where the rape of Islam by means of the Wahhabi doctrine to further polical goals - and to _export_ this dangerous doctrine - is among the most blatant and striking examples of such activities in Modern Times. Sheltered under the Ignoring US Umbrella. And not to forget: The whole region is a vulcano ready to explode. That is what I would describe as a “domino effect” waiting to happen. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/15 "2004-12-23T18:01:45Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, there are only two countries in the world where democracy has succesfully been forced on a country through outside force: Germany and Japan. You may be correct. As a juxtapose to those examples, and that of Iraq, it would be an uplifting message if a nation as important as Saudi Arabia could be encouraged to embrace democracy without a shot being fired. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/16 "2004-12-23T18:39:13Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > [Here’s](http://www.armback.se/saudi.htm) an article from **the Atlantic Monthly** that deals in SA and current issues. Read it and be afraid. Be very afraid. Thankyou for that cite! I can’t believe that I’ve been so ignorant of how serious situation is there. And nevermind just there. The fall of the Soviet Union will be nothing compared to when the corrupt House of Saud falls. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/17 "2004-12-24T00:44:49Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, there are only two countries in the world where democracy has succesfully been forced on a country through outside force: Germany and Japan. Technically democracy was restored in Germany. So that leaves **one** country which has had democracy introduced by foreigners. And that took atomic bombs… ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/18 "2004-12-24T00:58:11Z")
Great article from THE NEW YORKER from [January](http://www.lawrencewright.com/art-saudi.html) by Lawrence Wright. Sorry about the small print and all. > [@](#): > > …with Saudi Arabia containing one-fourth of the world’s known oil reserves, the government has no need to tax its citizens. Education and health care are free. But there is little evidence of public wealth or charity. As I explored the kingdom, I noticed few parks or playgrounds or museums. There are not enough universities or private schools to serve the population; practically no research institutions; few public arts groups; and no human-rights organization. Philanthropy fails to make up for the government’s neglect; for one thing, the absence of taxes means that there are no charitable deductions and therefore no financial incentives for giving. > > The fact that there are no secular charities or non-governmental institutions or, of course, political parties—civil society, in other words—means that there is no moderate, stabilizing middle ground between the government and the clerics. This situation has, naturally, elevated the power of religious conservatives. Although many of its own citizens struggle to make do, the Saudi government sends about two billion dollars a year in aid to other Islamic countries, building mosques and madrassas, underwriting religious universities, distributing books and tracts, funding charities—and supporting jihad. These donations, approved by the small inner circle of elderly princes who run the government, are made with an eye toward placating the country’s religious extremists; they also insure that the Wahhabi strain of Sunni Islam, the official dogma of the kingdom, will be the Muslim voice heard above all others… > > “Women will always be the core issue that will hinder any social progress in Saudi Arabia,” Qusti wrote. “We limit their roles in public, ban them from public participation in decision making, we doubt them and confine them because we think they are the source of all seduction and evil in the world. And then we say proudly: ‘We are Muslims.’” > > A middle-aged Saudi told me, “I am worried about the next generation. They don’t see any real women at all. You don’t see each other’s wives, daughters, sisters. Everything is masculine. And yet they are bombarded by images. They can easily see porn. They live in the imagination of sex all the time. We don’t grow naturally, to be loved, not to be loved—we don’t undergo these changes. Two-thirds of the marriages here are basically loveless. Many men cheat—there’s a lot going on underground.” > > In the Gazette, Baswaid reported on a survey of more than two thousand students in Jeddah, aged thirteen to twenty-five, that was conducted by a researcher at King Abdul Aziz University. Sixty-five per cent of the boys and seventy-two per cent of the girls showed symptoms of depression; seven per cent of the girls admitted that they had attempted suicide (more than twice the rate of the boys). Drug use was nearly five per cent for both sexes, as was the rate of alcoholism. “Five per cent alcoholism among intermediate and high-school students in an Islamic country is jarring to our ears,” Dr. Saud Hasan Mukhtar, a professor at the university, told Baswaid. Something’s gotta give, but I honestly don’t know what will happen there. And if more moderate Muslims sometimes wonder why their voices aren’t heard as much in the West, well, we’re trying to listen, but y’all can get drowned out. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/19 "2004-12-24T09:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Technically democracy was restored in Germany. And that took atomic bombs… Wow, I didn’t know Atomic bombs could transport themselves all the way from _Japan_ to Germany. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244/20 "2004-12-24T11:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Technically democracy was restored in Germany. And that took atomic bombs… > > Wow, I didn’t know Atomic bombs could transport themselves all the way from _Japan_ to Germany. **Moderator’s Note:** **Ryan\_Liam** , I don’t know if you just completely misread what was posted, but [deliberately misquoting another poster is against the rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2171051). It’s quite clear to me at least that the reference to “atomic bombs” in the post you quoted is to Japan: > [@](#): > > > [@The Gaspode](#): > > > > If I’m not mistaken, there are only two countries in the world where democracy has succesfully been forced on a country through outside force: Germany and Japan. > > Technically democracy was restored in Germany. > So that leaves **one** country which has had democracy introduced by foreigners. And that took atomic bombs… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-in-saudia-arabia/281244.md?page=2)