# Democracy is dead in Georgia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697 "2018-10-09T15:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/241 "2018-10-15T11:27:39Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > I’m not really interested in getting into a discussion of your legal system, but weren’t you the one that brought the supreme court ruling into this discussion? > Why, yes you were. > > Right, but you’re happy to mock them for expressing justified outrage at blatantly politically-motivated rule-bending. > To quote you’re first post: > > We get it! It’s (probably) technically legal. > You’re constant mantra of “but it’s leeeeeeeeegal!” is the equivalent of “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!” > > You’re no doubt sick of all these infantile leftists whining “but it’s not faaaaaaiiiiiiir.” > Just try to realize that in terms of power and advantage, the situation is more akin to a kid crying “but it’s not fair!” from the bottom of a very deep pit. And your party is standing at the top holding the shovel. > > Now Bricker . . . let’s keep it straight. > The legally acceptable reason given for why these folks were removed from the rolls was NOT because they didn’t vote in the past. > It was NOT because they failed to return mail. > It was because they were PRESUMED to have MOVED out of the state. Even though a great many of them . . . had . . . NOT . . . moved. > > Maybe, just maybe, the method of verification was not at all “reasonable” and the system of maintaining voter registry is flawed. > If 70% of those removed through this method are of one particular minority, then maybe, just maybe, the system is biased, whether by intent or circumstance. > If the implementation of the system is being overseen by the party in power, and the outcome seems to greatly disadvantage the opposition party, then maybe, just maybe there is cause to suspect intentional bias rather than circumstantial bias. > Maybe, just maybe, the man in charge of that system, who is also running a tight race for governor against an opponent who is of the particular minority most affected by the voter purge, has taken unfair advantage of the system to secure a victory not by appealing to the people but by turning to trickery — following the letter of the law while completely subverting the principle of democracy > You didn’t win, Bricker. You lost, along with the rest of the nation. > You voted against Trump because you recognized what a disaster he would be for America, and you were right. > But you still haven’t realized what a disaster the broader Republican-led Ultra-conservative, Antidemocratic movement has become. > Trump is just the obvious symptom, the fetid tumor breaking through the skin, but the cancer runs much deeper, and your philosophies are just another aspect of it. > > Just a dozen or so cases of actual voter fraud throughout the entire nation and you think that’s grounds for implementing voter ID laws that will suppress voting among minorities — giving a political advantage to your own party while disadvantaging thousands of people you feel no affinity for. > Hundreds of thousands of minority citizens are removed from voter rolls in a single state and you think everything’s just fine as it is and no changes should be made — giving a political advantage to your own party while disadvantaging thousands of people you feel no affinity for. > Under Republican oversight, the number of voting machines made available to Democratic-leaning minority communities are severely limited, and early voting is restricted, forcing people to wait in line for hours to cast their vote — giving a political advantage to your own party while disadvantaging thousands of people you feel no affinity for. > > Of course you see no problem when the advantage is all your own and you don’t care about the people actually affected by it. > Don’t pretend to believe in Democracy when you champion the control of power through subterfuge. All true but wasted breath. You can’t argue about morality with someone who has no morals. You can’t argue about justice with someone who does not believe in it. To him, it’s all about winning. It’s all about putting the “right” people on the Supreme Court so that he can continue to play with his guns and fantasize about being Dirty Harry, or so that abortion will be outlawed so that others are forced to live by his religious beliefs. Or so that people be denied entry into the nation because he feels morally superior to them. That’s what matters. Having a democracy where voting is equally easy for all to participate in- naw, not of any interest to him whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/242 "2018-10-15T11:38:18Z")
Holy crap! That _was_ a long post, wasn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/243 "2018-10-15T13:40:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We disagree about this philosophy. But there is a system in which each of us is permitted to make a public case for which view should control. Mine won. Yours did not. > > You can of course keep arguing yours should win. But you should not argue that mine did not REALLY win, when it actually did. So that’s what it comes down to: might makes right. The message you’re sending to the opposition is, “Next time you win, try to rig the system so that you keep my side from winning – of course we own the courts, too, so good luck with that. Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyahhh! Nyaaaahhh!” :rolleyes: You’re arguing that whichever side wins an election and, thus, wins power, has the right to change the political system, as long as they can get away with it. Bricker, it seems cthat you have a preference for oligarchy and flawed democracy over a system that is truly democratic. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/244 "2018-10-15T17:07:04Z")
Why are these voters more likely to be Democratic? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/245 "2018-10-15T17:12:59Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So that’s what it comes down to: might makes right. The message you’re sending to the opposition is, “Next time you win, try to rig the system so that you keep my side from winning – of course we own the courts, too, so good luck with that. Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyahhh! Nyaaaahhh!” :rolleyes: You’re arguing that whichever side wins an election and, thus, wins power, has the right to change the political system, as long as they can get away with it. > Bricker, it seems cthat you have a preference for oligarchy and flawed democracy over a system that is truly democratic. Flawed democracy is when the majority makes the laws? I think you know that “might” is physical force. What you are describing is a democratic outcome, not physical force. I don’t like democratic outcomes any more than you. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/246 "2018-10-15T17:15:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > All true but wasted breath. You can’t argue about morality with someone who has no morals. You can’t argue about justice with someone who does not believe in it. To him, it’s all about winning. It’s all about putting the “right” people on the Supreme Court so that he can continue to play with his guns and fantasize about being Dirty Harry, or so that abortion will be outlawed so that others are forced to live by his religious beliefs. Or so that people be denied entry into the nation because he feels morally superior to them. That’s what matters. Having a democracy where voting is equally easy for all to participate in- naw, not of any interest to him whatsoever. Why do you limit voting rights to citizens? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/247 "2018-10-15T17:18:00Z")
I’d be fine with non-citizen residents voting in US elections. That isn’t the issue here, the issue is blatant attempts by Republicans to win elections by voter suppression. Voters are supposed to choose their politicians, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/248 "2018-10-15T17:28:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Flawed democracy is when the majority makes the laws? Flawed democracy is when people without morals or ethics make the laws. > [@Declaration of Independence](#): > > That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed An elected government using their powers to make it harder for those governed to give their consent is a violation of the very principles laid down at the formation of our government. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/249 "2018-10-15T17:54:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Flawed democracy is when the majority makes the laws? Majority? Donald Trump got nearly 3 million votes less than Hilary Clinton, yet he is president. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016). Brett Kavanaugh was confirmed to the Supreme Court by a 50-48 vote, where the 50 “yea” votes represented 141 million citizens, while the 48 “nay” votes represented 181 million. [Cite](https://govtrackinsider.com/with-kavanaugh-vote-the-senate-reaches-a-historic-low-in-democratic-metric-dfb0f5fa7fa). There’s nothing “majority” about what’s happening these days. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/250 "2018-10-15T18:16:09Z")
nevermind, wrong forum ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/251 "2018-10-15T19:47:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Flawed democracy is when people without morals or ethics make the laws. > > An elected government using their powers to make it harder for those governed to give their consent is a violation of the very principles laid down at the formation of our government. No that’s regular democracy. You do realize that very few people could vote back then? May want to update your rhetoric. > [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Majority? > > Donald Trump got nearly 3 million votes less than Hilary Clinton, yet he is president. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016). Brett Kavanaugh was confirmed to the Supreme Court by a 50-48 vote, where the 50 “yea” votes represented 141 million citizens, while the 48 “nay” votes represented 181 million. [Cite](https://govtrackinsider.com/with-kavanaugh-vote-the-senate-reaches-a-historic-low-in-democratic-metric-dfb0f5fa7fa). > > There’s nothing “majority” about what’s happening these days. The folks operating in Georgia were elected by a majority, no? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/252 "2018-10-15T20:33:48Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Majority? > > Donald Trump got nearly 3 million votes less than Hilary Clinton, yet he is president. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016). Brett Kavanaugh was confirmed to the Supreme Court by a 50-48 vote, where the 50 “yea” votes represented 141 million citizens, while the 48 “nay” votes represented 181 million. [Cite](https://govtrackinsider.com/with-kavanaugh-vote-the-senate-reaches-a-historic-low-in-democratic-metric-dfb0f5fa7fa). > > There’s nothing “majority” about what’s happening these days. Actually, Donald Trump got 304 votes, and Hillary Clinton got only 227, a clear majority for Trump. Because Trump (and possibly Clinton too) were aware that the winner of the contest was determined by the electoral votes of the states that were won, not the total aggregate votes from each state. So they each planned their campaign strategies around that fact. In other news, the 1960 Yankees should demand another World Series win. They should point out that they scored 55 runs to Pittsburgh’s measly 27 in the world series, and were still were not awarded the championship on the weak grounds that Pittsburgh won four games. I’m sure you’re outraged. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/253 "2018-10-15T21:51:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, Donald Trump got 304 votes, and Hillary Clinton got only 227, a clear majority for Trump. You’re not that dumb. Don’t pretend that this is an honest interpretation of “majority”. > [@](#): > > In other news, the 1960 Yankees should demand another World Series win. They should point out that they scored 55 runs to Pittsburgh’s measly 27 in the world series, and were still were not awarded the championship on the weak grounds that Pittsburgh won four games. I’m sure you’re outraged. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/254 "2018-10-16T00:45:11Z")
In other news: > [@](#): > > A computer server crucial to a lawsuit against Georgia election officials was quietly wiped clean by its custodians just after the suit was filed, The Associated Press has learned. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/255 "2018-10-16T00:54:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Flawed democracy is when the majority makes the laws? > > I think you know that “might” is physical force. What you are describing is a democratic outcome, not physical force. I don’t like democratic outcomes any more than you. No, flawed democracy is when a minority can create political districts that give them disproportionate chances at winning an election and claiming that they’re a majority. Republicans are not a majority; they’ve won a majority of districts and they won the presidency, but mainly owing to quirks in democracy that give rural shitkickers disproportionate representation as compared with urban-dwelling baristas with nose rings and colored hair. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/256 "2018-10-16T01:07:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, Donald Trump got 304 votes, and Hillary Clinton got only 227, a clear majority for Trump. This is getting a little far afield, but the presidential election was not a referendum on GA voting laws, and neither was the election of Kemp as Sec. of State. To quote myself from the thread in Elections, which you decided to ignore: > [@Georgia purges 1 in 10 voters from voter rolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/georgia-purges-1-in-10-voters-from-voter-rolls/822742/152): > > Unless this law and its implementation were spelled out as part of the platform that the Sec. of State ran on, I repeat, you have no idea how the voters of GA feel about this. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/257 "2018-10-16T01:16:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > No, flawed democracy is when a minority can create political districts that give them disproportionate chances at winning an election and claiming that they’re a majority. Republicans are not a majority; they’ve won a majority of districts and they won the presidency, but mainly owing to quirks in democracy that give rural shitkickers disproportionate representation as compared with urban-dwelling baristas with nose rings and colored hair. It’s strange that a minority can accomplish that. Perhaps you are mistaken. I believe it takes a majority to configure political districts. Get back to me on that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/258 "2018-10-16T02:37:22Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > This is getting a little far afield, but the presidential election was not a referendum on GA voting laws, and neither was the election of Kemp as Sec. of State. To quote myself from the thread in Elections, which you decided to ignore: In a representative democratic republic, the sovereign will of the people is expressed through its elected representatives. We don’t have referenda on every legislative decision; the legislature’s actions are still the expressed will of the people. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/259 "2018-10-16T03:48:55Z")
There needs to be an equivalent of Godwin’s law for stupid sports metaphors. Believe me we _all_ understand how the Elector College works. We learned that in 2000, with a refresher course in 2016. We just feel it an unfair and outmoded institution. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/260 "2018-10-16T09:26:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In a representative democratic republic, the sovereign will of the people is expressed through its elected representatives. We don’t have referenda on every legislative decision; the legislature’s actions are still the expressed will of the people. …unless a sizable proportion of the populace are being prevented or significantly obstructed from expressing their will by voting, in which case it’s not “representative”. See also: Jim Crow laws (again). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697.md?page=14)