# Democracy is dead in Georgia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697 "2018-10-09T15:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/161 "2018-10-11T11:28:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There have been plenty of answers from “real-world liberals and progressives”, as oxymoronic as that phrase is, that have informed by knowledge of their beliefs. If your feelings are hurt because I call a spade a spade, perhaps that is evidence of inner guilt. I’m sorry that you’re unable to distinguish between the voices in your head and people in the real world. But if you ever decide you’d like to try and do so, I’d be happy to answer questions. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/162 "2018-10-11T11:42:17Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Actually, I think the next sentence deserves to be quoted in full (bolding mine): > > Steophan, do you repudiate the above sentence? If not, then as far as any reasonable person could tell iiandyiiii is entirely in the right here. No, I don’t repudiate my view that people who try to improve their neighbourhood by addressing antisocial behaviour are not evil criminals, and neither do I repudiate believing that anyone doing so has the (moral) right to defend themselves if attacked in the process. I can believe that and _also_ believe that one of the people who did just that also committed attempted murder. That doesn’t change my view on his previous actions. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/163 "2018-10-11T11:45:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Read for comprehension. Hi **WillFarnaby**! You’ve never obliged us with the slightest hint of how Farnabytopia works. I know you need judges and police — are they all private? If someone cheats me do I hire a police service and have the perp transported to the private justice system for which I’m a paid-up subscriber? Mandatory brain implants to control behavior is the only mechanism I’ve come up with that would enable your system to function. Am I on the right track? We’re not as stupid as you think we are. Even a 25-word synopsis leaving us to fill in the blanks would give us a better clue about your political philosophy than we have now. As is, it seems you just carom from crazy Youtube to crazier YouTube parroting whichever is the craziest you’ve seen recently. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/164 "2018-10-11T11:55:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I don’t repudiate my view that people who try to improve their neighbourhood by addressing antisocial behaviour are not evil criminals, and neither do I repudiate believing that anyone doing so has the (moral) right to defend themselves if attacked in the process. > > I can believe that and _also_ believe that one of the people who did just that also committed attempted murder. That doesn’t change my view on his previous actions. Then iiandyiiii hasn’t misrepresented your view. He hasn’t claimed – at least in this thread – that you never said it wasn’t attempted murder. Nevertheless you defend and sympathize with persons you feel have attempted murder, which is entirely on you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/165 "2018-10-11T12:00:08Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Then iiandyiiii hasn’t misrepresented your view. He hasn’t claimed – at least in this thread – that you never said it wasn’t attempted murder. Nevertheless you defend and sympathize with persons you feel have attempted murder, which is entirely on you. Even more than that, he praises someone he feels has attempted murder as “the sort of people normal people want around them”. **Steophan** , combining your words then and now, and your refusal to repudiate your praise of Dunn then, you believe normal people would want an attempted murderer around them. Nuts. Hilarious, especially in light of your faux-horror about people suggesting hanging those they consider treasonous, but still nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/166 "2018-10-11T13:20:09Z")
It is probably worth noting that[70% of Voters Purged from Rolls by GA Gubernatorial Candidate Brian Kemp Are Black](https://gritpost.com/georgia-voters-purged-black/) > [@](#): > > 670,000 registrations were purged last year alone, and 53,000 voter registrations are currently sitting on hold on Kemp’s desk. While Georgia’s population is 32 percent black, the population Kemp has purged is almost 70 percent black. Now, when the AG of a state that literally flies the Confederate flag in front of the statehouse every single day oversees results like this, I don’t think we have to wait for the FBI report to figure out what is going on. OTOH, is it literally treason? I dunno if I would go that far. “Anti-social”? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/167 "2018-10-11T13:21:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, and here’s a [cite](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18179075)for it being compulsory to register. It’s an older article, but it describes the transition to the current individual registration system. I’ve never actually heard of anyone being punished for not registering, it sounds like you’d have to actively refuse more than once, rather than just forget or whatever. > > It’s a simple system of returning a form the local government send to you, or filling the same form out online. Yeah, I did ours a couple of weeks ago. The local council sent us a form with the previous years’ details filled in and asked us to either tell them of any changes or confirm no change (it’s done on a household basis). I waited a bit too long to do it and got a reminder from the council, along with an indication that if we didn’t respond they would send someone around to ask in person and we might face a small fee for this. I’m not sure what happens if you deliberately try to avoid providing this information but it’s certainly easy to comply - hell, as we had no changes we just had to text NO CHANGE to a number provided. Easy as that. And it’s very clear that it’s a notice from the council, not junk mail. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/168 "2018-10-11T13:22:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sorry that you’re unable to distinguish between the voices in your head and people in the real world. But if you ever decide you’d like to try and do so, I’d be happy to answer questions. I don’t think you would be. Too hostile for a Trump nuclear minion. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/169 "2018-10-11T13:33:25Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Hi **WillFarnaby**! You’ve never obliged us with the slightest hint of how Farnabytopia works. I know you need judges and police — are they all private? If someone cheats me do I hire a police service and have the perp transported to the private justice system for which I’m a paid-up subscriber? > > Mandatory brain implants to control behavior is the only mechanism I’ve come up with that would enable your system to function. Am I on the right track? > > We’re not as stupid as you think we are. Even a 25-word synopsis leaving us to fill in the blanks would give us a better clue about your political philosophy than we have now. As is, it seems you just carom from crazy Youtube to crazier YouTube parroting whichever is the craziest you’ve seen recently. I understand you find it necessary for a leviathan state that will stand between you and a bottle of OxyContin, mass incarceration be damned. I opt for a non-coercive approach. There has been much scholarship about how a noncoercive legal system would work. Indeed such systems work just fine right now in parallel with state systems. See the work of Bruce Benson and Ed Stringham. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/170 "2018-10-11T13:40:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > See the work of Bruce Benson and Ed Stringham. I’m pleased to note that you think your political philosophy has some basis. But no, I’m not going to waste a Googling. If you post a relevant URL and excerpt 2 or 3 key paragraphs I will attend to it with interest. If you can’t be bothered to do even that, that’s fine too. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/171 "2018-10-11T13:42:29Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > It is probably worth noting that[70% of Voters Purged from Rolls by GA Gubernatorial Candidate Brian Kemp Are Black](https://gritpost.com/georgia-voters-purged-black/) That’s not actually what the original AP story says. The original story says “the list of voter registrations on hold with Kemp’s office is nearly 70 percent black” 70% of the 53,000 names that are pending. The story goes on to say “Voters whose applications are frozen in “pending” status have 26 months to fix any issues before their application is canceled, and can still cast a provisional ballot” Doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/172 "2018-10-11T13:42:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t think you would be. Too hostile for a Trump nuclear minion. Aww, you’re hurting my feelings. Nevertheless, my offer to answer any questions you have remains open. Just in case you’d like to hear what actual liberals and progressives think; and just in case you’re actually open to the possibility that your understanding of that group might be flawed. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/173 "2018-10-11T14:04:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Aww, you’re hurting my feelings. Nevertheless, my offer to answer any questions you have remains open. Just in case you’d like to hear what actual liberals and progressives think; and just in case you’re actually open to the possibility that your understanding of that group might be flawed. Ok: Many liberals and progressives can only attain their current standard of living through working for or closely with the government. Has the ascendancy of Trump caused some cognitive dissonance for these poor souls? Have they considered serving their fellow man through private endeavors, or do they glumly follow Trump’s directives and punch their pillow watching Maddow at night? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/174 "2018-10-11T14:13:04Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok: > > Many liberals and progressives can only attain their current standard of living through working for or closely with the government. Has the ascendancy of Trump caused some cognitive dissonance for these poor souls? Have they considered serving their fellow man through private endeavors, or do they glumly follow Trump’s directives and punch their pillow watching Maddow at night? I don’t accept the premise (which seems laughable on its face – most liberals and progressives I’ve ever met work in the retail or service industries). But at least for me, working for the government, so far the mission of my job hasn’t changed in any way I’m aware of (the most important goal is still to make sure submarine sailors stay safe), and thus I feel no cognitive dissonance. If I were ordered to, say, fire on a crowd of protesters, things would be significantly different and I think and hope I have the moral strength to refuse such an order. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/175 "2018-10-11T15:50:18Z")
Ok so the answer is “you don’t know”. Very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/176 "2018-10-11T16:15:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok so the answer is “you don’t know”. Very helpful. I guess I can’t compete with those voices in your head… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/177 "2018-10-11T18:30:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Many liberals and progressives can only attain their current standard of living through working for or closely with the government. I’d have to agree with **andy** on this one…this premise appears to be extremely laughable. Do you have a cite that can back this up? Most of the government workers I’ve known over the years tend to be right-leaning moderates (with some exceptions, of course.) And, of all the liberals/progressives that I’ve known, exactly two have worked for a government entity for the majority of their career. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but it’s more evidence than what you’ve thus far offered. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/178 "2018-10-11T18:34:33Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > I’d have to agree with **andy** on this one…this premise appears to be extremely laughable. Do you have a cite that can back this up? > > Most of the government workers I’ve known over the years tend to be right-leaning moderates (with some exceptions, of course.) And, of all the liberals/progressives that I’ve known, exactly two have worked for a government entity for the majority of their career. > > Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but it’s more evidence than what you’ve thus far offered. Most of the folks in my goverment office are conservative as well. Anecdotal, of course. Among my personal friends, most are liberal/progressive, and most do not work for government or government-adjacent industries (rather, most work in retail or service jobs). ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/179 "2018-10-11T18:59:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s not actually what the original AP story says. The original story says “the list of voter registrations on hold with Kemp’s office is nearly 70 percent black” > > 70% of the 53,000 names that are pending. The story goes on to say “Voters whose applications are frozen in “pending” status have 26 months to fix any issues before their application is canceled, and can still cast a provisional ballot” > > Doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. The article states that people are not notified when their registration is flagged by the exact-match system. If I didn’t care if these people voted, I would not notify them either. And, the article states that blacks make up 70% of the purged population, which was over 600k last year, not just the 53k that are “pending”. Yes, 26 months is plenty of time to fix it, but without notification it seems the only way many will find out is by being denied the right to vote first. Maybe I’m missing a nuance somewhere, but it seems like a big deal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697/180 "2018-10-11T19:10:31Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > Obviously you’re the expert on legal issues, and if it’s _perfectly_ legal to purge half a million citizens from the rolls in this way, well, _I_ would find that troubling and would question the process by which such action became legally justifiable. In _Husted v A Philip Randolph Institute_, a decision from this year, the Supreme Court said: > [@](#): > > What if no return card is mailed back? Congress obviously anticipated that some voters who received cards would fail to return them for any number of reasons, and it addressed this contingency in §20507(d), which, for convenience, we will simply call “subsection (d).” Subsection (d) treats the failure to return a card as some evidence—but by no means conclusive proof—that the voter has moved. Instead, the voter’s name is kept on the list for a period covering two general elections for federal office (usually about four years). Only if the registrant fails to vote during that period and does not otherwise confirm that he or she still lives in the district (e.g., by updating address information online) may the registrant’s name be removed. > [@](#): > > But aside from what is or isn’t technically subject to legal restraints and repercussions, as a person with moral values, ideals, ethical standards and _feelings_, what do you think of this voter purge thing? My feelings are not the proper subject of this debate. But if you want to know: I don’t believe this kind of process is immoral, unethical, or in any way wrong. Voting, in my view, is appropriate subject to careful verification. This kind of standard process for keeping voter rolls up to date is perfectly appropriate, in my opinion. Also, abortion is wrong. Since you are so concerned about my opinion instead of the law, I thought you should note my strong ethical and moral objection to abortion, and the fact that I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that the law should be changed by legislative action, even when my personal moral and ethical standards counsel a different outcome. > [@](#): > > And what do you see as the potential repercussions on the integrity of the democratic process and the sanctity of citizens’ constitutional rights within that process? In my view, nothing about this runs counter to the sanctity of citizens’ constitutional rights, as the Supreme Court has made clear. > [@](#): > > How do you feel this weighs against the issue of voter fraud ーan issue made much of by Republicansー in terms of real threat to the democratic process and effect on the public’s faith therein? I don’t regard anyone concerned about removal from the voting rolls after not voting in multiple elections and ignoring mail advising them of the need to confirm their address and when they have the right to cast a provisional ballot even after such removal as a concern that society should treat seriously. I do regard voter fraud as a concern that society should treat seriously, because even though it is ultra-rare, it creates distrust in the outcome. Reasonable people may disagree, of course. > [@](#): > > When the urging of citizens to participate in the great Democratic Experiment has to go from > “Go out and vote!” > to “Make sure you’re registered to vote!” > to “Double check that you haven’t been discretely removed from the voting registry!” > it really does seem like someone’s been fucking with the experiment’s parameters. Not at all, in my opinion. > [@](#): > > On a trivial side note: > > (My bolding) > I get that you’re doing a bit here, but are you also doing the _thing_? > Y’know, with calling it the “Democrat Party” even though that’s not the actual name of the party, because “Democ-RAT”? > No? > > I’ve heard some people like to do that. > For whatever reason. Not I. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-is-dead-in-georgia/822697.md?page=10)