# Democracy isn't going to work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 1999, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020 "1999-12-09T19:03:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 1999, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/21 "1999-12-09T21:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the problem is not in [the]form of government so much as in breadth of government. Substitute the word scope for breadth, and you have my sentiments exactly. Look, I’m not saying that democracy is bad per se. I’m just saying that it is entirely possible for the majority to oppress the minority, and everybody here knows that’s true. And the more ignorant people are, the more likely they will do exactly that. Libertarianism is not concerned with the form of government as such, but with its context. Is it a context in which peaceful honest people are guaranteed to be free from coercion and fraud? If so, it is libertarian. That’s all. ## A monarchy in which the rights of citizens are secured is more libertarian than a democracy that has slaves. “It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 1999, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/22 "1999-12-09T21:23:00Z")
I think the point in the OP is well-taken: informed voters need to have some general knowledge of the universe in order to understand politics. I don’t think the “electron bigger than atom?” question is really relevant, but the “is radiation man-made” question is. I remember a couple of wide-eyed college freshpeople discussing with great trepidation how horrible it is that TVs admit radiation. I triet to enlighten them with a list of other things that emit radiation, but I don’t think they got my point. “What, people emit radiation too? That’s terrible! Must be from all the irradiated food! What, the sun emits radiation too? Must be from all those atmospheric nuclear tests?” etc. etc. So why do we have so many strip-mines and coal-fired plants? Because newkyuhlur plants _emit radiation_. By the way, I hate question O. Neither body revolves around the other; they both revolve around their collective center of mass. There is nothing shameful about having a frame of reference; if an earthling like Tycho Brahe want to admit that his point of view is earth-bound, that is no reason to discount him. The antibiotics/bacteria/virus question is pretty relevant too. A lot of people seem to think there must be some _political_ reason why we haven’t found a cure for AIDS. After all, we’ve cured polio, right? And we could real easy cure the common cold but who cares about a cold, right? No, sorry. Viruses are different from bacteria, and retroviruses are different from the other kind of viruses. AIDS is simply a tough nut to crack, and hollering about how the politicians don’t care isn’t going to help. (This is separate from criticism of apathy about AIDS _infection-control_, which did allow the disease to run rampant until people woke up. Civic action can educate people but doesn’t tend to affect molecular biochemistry much.) In conclusion, I do think majority rule is a good thing, since the alternative would be rule by a minority. Who is most likely to be able to worm their way into the ruling minority? Folks who educate themselves, go to science conventions, and know the difference between an ion and an isotope? Or people who are overwhelming concerned with fundamentally less-intellectual things like power, prestige, fast cars, fast women, and that little football the President has in case he has to nuke somebody? What I’m trying to say is that dictators and oligarchs are not, generally, the smartest people in the country. They can come to power in a number of ways: murder, deceit, making a ton of money on pork-belly futures, being from Ohio, being from the same fraternity as the Minister for Information and Propaganda, etc. Brainpower is pretty diluted in that mix. I used to admire the idea of a philosopher-king, but now I’ve adopted the fallback position: policies created and critiqued by specialists, with the public sort of lending power to various factions of specialists. I’ll call this the technocratic republic, and say proudly that it is the worst form of government ever conceived, with the exception of all the others. * * * Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![JBENZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@JBENZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBENZ)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 1999, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/23 "1999-12-10T00:24:00Z")
To quote the Master (no, not him, the other one, Sherlock Holmes): “What the deuce is it (the solar system) to me? You say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or my work.” Scientific illiteracy may be deplorable (and I could pick a few nits in that list of answers myself) but there’s no particular reason why lack of specialized knowledge in one field disqualifies one from participating in an activity that requires different knowledge. If we’re gonna start qualifying voters who’s a better choice, some rustic rube who can spot a liar at 20 paces or an Edward Teller who thinks the H-Bomb is God’s gift to Mankind? * * * JB Lex Non Favet Delicatorum Votis ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 1999, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/24 "1999-12-10T14:08:00Z")
Good points, Boris and JBENZ. Intelligence does not equal good leadership, even if it is necessary for it. People should be free to elect those that they think have the intelligence and ability to govern. Perhaps they aren’t smart enough to make the best choices, but that doesn’t mean having no choice is better. > [@](#): > > A monarchy in which the rights of citizens are secured is more libertarian than a democracy that has slaves. Sure that’s true, but rights are secured with power, and that costs money. But taxes are wrong, so what’s a Libertarian monarch to do? Further, how would power be transferred to guarantee that Libertarian ideals are maintained by the next leader? ---
**Author:** ![WallyM7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5e925/32.png) [@WallyM7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WallyM7)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 1999, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/25 "1999-12-10T15:07:00Z")
“Making an informed choice” presumes that canditates have differing ideas, state their objectives clearly, and will carry them out if elected. This is seldom the case, and anyway their are enough safeguards to prevent a tyranny by the majority. Just because the dim do the electing, it does not follow that they rule. You can make a former wrestler a Governor, but nothing much will happen, good or bad. One final word: Politicians come and go, but bureaucracy is forever. It is they who really run the country. ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 1999, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/26 "1999-12-10T16:42:00Z")
“You can make a former wrestler a Governor, but nothing much will happen, good or bad.” Yeah, we live in a government where nothing ever really happens…thats my point. Ok, so it isn’t going to crumble and anarchy won’t reign, but shouldn’t we ask a little more of ourselves and our government than to just stay static? “One final word: Politicians come and go, but bureaucracy is forever. It is they who really run the country.” And that’s democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/27 "1999-12-11T06:56:00Z")
Oh, I think Wally was saying we should relax, since we’re not really a democracy anyway; instead we are a bureaucracy in the _etymological_ sense of the term, or a “bureaucratocracy” if you don’t mind my coining a (slightly tortured) word. In fact, this is kind what I’m advocating, although I prefer the term “technocracy” since I’ll get slapped if I use the term “bureaucratocracy” in polite company. What’s so polite about getting slapped anyway? Bureaus and think tanks and Chicago Schools of Economics can craft and hawk their policies - policies the public has next to nothing to add to. However, this is far from oligarchy or despotism, since (a) we have tons of bureaus and think tanks, and (b) your policy won’t get anywhere if it doesn’t earn at least the acquiescence of the people who cast the ballots. So democracy is self-waiting in a way the classics never really considered. Illiterates probably aren’t fit to rule, at least not in the modern world, but they tend to stay home on election day anyway. If we ever got round to teaching the average citizen the difference between bacteria and wisteria, maybe the average citizen could form some sort of world-view. Only then would the average citizen be likely to vote. Until then, Jesse Helms and Ted Kennedy will keep getting re-elected, and hopefully cancelling one another out. The folks who pass the civil service exams will do the real work, and the average citizen will curse the government, while driving an NTSB-approved automobile on a publicly-maintained street to pick up their children from a free educational institution before cashing their social security check. ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/28 "1999-12-11T06:59:00Z")
Self-waiting? What the heck is that? Maybe my sig line isn’t a joke after all… Meant to say, “Democracy is self-regulating”. Which kind of rhymes with self-waiting? * * * Any similarity in the above text to an English word or phrase is purely coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 1999, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/29 "1999-12-10T21:15:00Z")
If the public doesn’t really want to participate in the workings of their government they should just admit it. Instead, they shout to be heard…and then have nothing to say. To paraphrase: If your not willing to fight for freedom you don’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Crimson\_Hipster\_Dufuz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Crimson_Hipster_Dufuz)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 1999, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/30 "1999-12-10T23:12:00Z")
\<\< If the public doesn’t really want to participate in the workings of their government they should just admit it. \>\> Really, it’s probably for the best. \<\< Instead, they shout to be heard…and then have nothing to say. \>\> Physician… \<\< To paraphrase: If your not willing to fight for freedom you don’t deserve it. \>\> ## I suppose it would be deuced bad form for me to point out that the difference between “your” and “you’re” is easier to grasp than plate tectonics, presumably something you use everyday, etc. {\¶/} ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/31 "1999-12-13T16:06:00Z")
Actually, it’s possesive, I own a “not”…It’s a new model. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/32 "1999-12-13T16:28:00Z")
Occam said: "Ok, so it isn’t going to crumble and anarchy won’t reign, but shouldn’t we ask a little more of ourselves and our government than to just stay static? " NO! Static is very, very good. Slow, lumbering sloth is what we want here. A too responsive government would be a very bad thing: we don’t want to make major changes based on whatever seemed like a good idea at the time. We want to make changess based on what seems like a good idea after twenty years of thinking about it, which is the system we have right now. Individual human beings, including congressmen, are extremly vunrable to fads and new ideas, and this is something we need to protect ourselves from, not facilitate. The only area in which high responsiveness is vital is in the military, and that is the one area where we are capable of responding quickly. Someone here’s sig line is “The Dopeler effect: the tendency of ideas to look smarter when they are coming at you very fast” or something like that. I think it is a very good point. Stasis is very, very good. The alternative is not dynamic, but unstable. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/33 "1999-12-13T17:09:00Z")
It should be noted that one who knows science may still be a very uninformed voter. Case in point: Me. I would have got 100% percent on the quiz in the OP, but I barely know who the Governer of my state is. I’m not proud of that, but I won’t deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/34 "1999-12-13T17:50:00Z")
Revtim- Yeah, that was touched on earlier, maybe I was being a little to harsh comparing voting choices with science knowledge. But without be argumentative can you see some correlation between someones education and their willingness to participate in a Democracy? Manda- Ok, static is better than anarchy. Still, you can’t deny we drag our heels on one sided issues. Can you explain why the government needed 20 or more years to decide it would be a good idea for women and blacks to vote? If anything should be static or slow it should be offensive military action! ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/35 "1999-12-13T22:08:00Z")
[http://www.xs4all.nl/~jcdverha/scijokes/2\_7.html#subindex](http://www.xs4all.nl/~jcdverha/scijokes/2_7.html#subindex) The above is a link showing how, not only do average folks not know much about science; science students apparently don’t either (at least, not _these_ science students). Just for fun. Not relevant. * * * I don’t want to make people think like me, I want them to think like me of their own free will. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/36 "1999-12-13T23:24:00Z")
Occam, I agree with you that educated people are probably more willing to participate, or at least participate more intelligently in the system. I only had a problem with you equating the science knowledge with it. In fact, every time I hear impassioned pleas to people to get out in vote, I always cringe. Instead of “Everybody get out and vote!” how about, “Everybody learn a little something about the issues, read a newspaper or two, THEN vote.” They always seem to skip that part. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020/37 "1999-12-13T23:35:00Z")
Revtim stated: > [@](#): > > In fact, every time I hear impassioned pleas to people to get out in vote, I always cringe. Instead of “Everybody get out and vote!” how about, “Everybody learn a little something about the issues, read a newspaper or two, THEN vote.” They always seem to skip that part. Agreed. I read an article a few years ago that showed that elected officials’ names are disproportionately skewed towards the first half of the alphabet. The reason? People not knowing the candidates, and just checking off the top name (or several names, in certain cases) on the ballot. I’d bemoan this if it didn’t mean I have a better chance of getting elected to Congress than most. * * * JMCJ Die, Prentiss, Die! You will never have a more glorious opportunity! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-isnt-going-to-work/17020.md?page=1)