# Democracy Without Transparency is Tyranny. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626 "2009-08-16T15:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/21 "2009-08-16T18:46:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Look at the current controversy over the health care bill. This whole thing could have been settled easily if it happened behind closed doors, with some Democratic and Republican congressmen sitting down and quietly working out some sort of deal. Except that the doctors, insurance companies and drug companies would be in the room as well (paying $10m each at the door, but no one will ever know, because you know, we can’t have any transparency). This would be the plan they would agree on: 1. Everyone gets health insurance, with no limits on utlilization and no limits on prices. Everyone gets cake too, and ice cream, but only if they want it. You know, choice and personal responsibility. 2. Premiums are subsidized for the population so that they pay less than they pay under their employer sponsored plans. If they currently are paying nothing, they still pay nothing, and get a double helping of cake. 3. Subsidies come out of the general revenues, not any specific new taxes or “contributions”. 4. The whole thing will be cost neutral to the Federal government because everyone will agree that costs will come down by 80% on Medicare, Medicaid and Tricare. There will be no actual measure in the law to get costs down, but everyone will agree that it will happen. Everyone who disagrees with this plan is a rabble-rousing idiot, who is only complaining about it because Obama is black. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/22 "2009-08-16T19:02:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Why? The US electorate are morons. Of course we are, given our lack of _real_ information. > [@](#): > > This whole thing could have been settled easily if it happened behind closed doors, with some Democratic and Republican congressmen sitting down and quietly working out some sort of deal. If Obama would an issue an executive order to appoint the health industry to find some way to universally extend health care and bring it in under a certain budget, it would get done and without the “help” of Congress. I wouldn’t care if was done behind closed doors. > [@](#): > > But instead it’s become a big deal, with **all sorts of public involvement** , talk of death panels and creeping socialism, and I think there’s a good chance nothing will pass now. [emphasis mine] Fear driven and designed by Fox to produce exactly nothing but smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/23 "2009-08-16T19:06:54Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Of course we are, given our lack of _real_ information. No, you could give Americans all the real information you wanted, and we’d still be morons. Most people wouldn’t read the information you gave them, they’d ask opinion makers what they should think about the issue and do that. It’s not a lack of information that’s the problem, it’s too much information. For the most part, people have lives, and jobs, and kids, and hobbies, and don’t want to waste time learning about and understanding all the political issues out there. That’s not going to change, so whenever you try to get the people involved in politics, you’re going to get mobs. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/24 "2009-08-16T19:33:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, you could give Americans all the real information you wanted, and we’d still be morons. Most people wouldn’t read the information you gave them, they’d ask opinion makers what they should think about the issue and do that. I’m inclined to agree. I like a little unbiased analysis of TMI, myself. > [@](#): > > It’s not a lack of information that’s the problem, it’s too much information. For the most part, people have lives, and jobs, and kids, and hobbies, and don’t want to waste time learning about and understanding all the political issues out there. That’s not going to change, so whenever you try to get the people involved in politics, you’re going to get mobs. But why is health care a political issue? Yes, I know, it effects so many people in many different ways. Everyone knows we need health care reform and as I expressed in a previous post > [@](#): > > If Obama would an issue an executive order to appoint the health industry to find some way to universally extend health care and bring it in under a certain budget, it would get done and without the “help” of Congress. I wouldn’t care if was done behind closed doors. Let’s give 'em a generous budget and let them figure out how to divide it up. And if there’s any public outcry let it be directed toward the folks we are paying and not towards each other. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/25 "2009-08-16T19:37:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s easy to blame all of California’s energy problems on Enron, because they did contribute to it, but a lot of the fault was Gray Davis’s insistence to maintain caps on consumer rates, and more generally, because the state of California engaged in a halfassed deregulation that allowed energy companies to engage in the stuff they did and at the same time, for political reasons, wouldn’t allow the building of new power plants or pass along higher energy prices to the consumer, thereby throwing the whole supply and demand thing all out of whack. Garbage. It wouldn’t have mattered if there were NO regulations restricting the building of power plants and a massive push to build them; you don’t slap things like that together in a month or two. Nor would have passing energy prices on have done anything but impoverish people. There was no “supply and demand” issue here; it was extortion by the energy industry. When the Feds finally were embarrassed into doing their job, California’s energy problems vanished because they were completely artificial and external. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > This whole thing could have been settled easily if it happened behind closed doors, with some Democratic and Republican congressmen sitting down and quietly working out some sort of deal. Not a chance. The Republicans don’t WANT any sort of deal that isn’t complete capitulation; they dont want national health care at all; and they don’t want Obama to succeed at anything whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/26 "2009-08-16T19:44:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nor would have passing energy prices on have done anything but impoverish people. There was no “supply and demand” issue here; it was extortion by the energy industry. When the Feds finally were embarrassed into doing their job, California’s energy problems vanished because they were completely artificial and external. Passing energy prices on would have encouraged people to reduce their electricity usage, which would have solved the brownout problem, which was a simple problem of the electricity demand exceeding the electricity supply. The gaming of the market by energy companies didn’t help the situation, but it started after the crisis had already begun. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/27 "2009-08-16T19:46:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The question is, does Obama really have the will and desire to make the changes he talked about or is he ultimately just a lying politician just like so many others. Why does it have to be so binary? Every morning I wake up with the full intent of ending procrastination, of getting all my work done before lurking on the Dope, of getting on the treadmill and bathing regularly. I know that _this_ week Mrs. Dvl and I are gong to get to cleaning the basement, and know that at the end of the summer I am going to winterize the lawn mower and bring in all the necessary plants. Do I get to all of that? Have I achieved a Martha Stewart level of productivity in my life? Nope. Am I a lying sack-o-shit. Nope. Do I mean well, but find that my well-meaning plans are a bit over ambitious? Yep. This doesn’t give him a free pass, but it’s way too early to tell what he will and won’t be able to get done. It’s also politically naive to think he hasn’t or won’t have to make sacrifices in order to best prioritize and spend his political capital. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/28 "2009-08-16T19:58:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. It wouldn’t have mattered if there were NO regulations restricting the building of power plants and a massive push to build them; you don’t slap things like that together in a month or two. Nor would have passing energy prices on have done anything but impoverish people. There was no “supply and demand” issue here; it was extortion by the energy industry. When the Feds finally were embarrassed into doing their job, California’s energy problems vanished because they were completely artificial and external. Go get 'em, but don’t fail to note the role of Opaquety. > [@](#): > > Not a chance. The Republicans don’t WANT any sort of deal that isn’t complete capitulation; they dont want national health care at all; and they don’t want Obama to succeed at anything whatsoever. Don’t really see it as a red/blue thing. Plenty of Dems quite comfortable with the status quo but politically must appear in favor of real change. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/29 "2009-08-16T20:00:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Passing energy prices on would have encouraged people to reduce their electricity usage, which would have solved the brownout problem, which was a simple problem of the electricity demand exceeding the electricity supply. The gaming of the market by energy companies didn’t help the situation, but it started after the crisis had already begun. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/30 "2009-08-16T20:37:12Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Sure. Were you aware Larry Summers had the balls to lecture Gray Davis on the causes of the energy crisis in 2000? Do you know who spoke with him? Did you know it included Kenneth Lay (you know-- the CEO of the energy company found to have manipulated California’s energy market??) Did you know it seems he suggested that market manipulation was **not** a cause of the crisis?[Cite](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/california-energy-memories/) > > Maybe you didn’t know Larry Summers was, along with Robert Rubin, an opponent of regulating the financial derivatives market. Maybe you didn’t know the derivatives market imploding is what caused AIG to go under and led to the Feds ponying up $180billion plus in bailout monies? > > Perhaps you didn’t know Summers was an advocate for [Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act). Maybe you didn’t know that President Obama campaigned [on the premise](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123665023774979341.html) that the Act is at least partially responsible for the economic meltdown. > > Maybe you didn’t know that Larry Summers is Director of the White House’s National Economic Council Maybe I don’t know the relevancy of any of this as it relates to the OP and transparancy? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/31 "2009-08-16T20:48:20Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Sure. Were you aware Larry Summers had the balls to lecture Gray Davis on the causes of the energy crisis in 2000? Do you know who spoke with him? Did you know it included Kenneth Lay (you know-- the CEO of the energy company found to have manipulated California’s energy market??) Did you know it seems he suggested that market manipulation was **not** a cause of the crisis?[Cite](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/california-energy-memories/) > > Maybe you didn’t know Larry Summers was, along with Robert Rubin, an opponent of regulating the financial derivatives market. Maybe you didn’t know the derivatives market imploding is what caused AIG to go under and led to the Feds ponying up $180billion plus in bailout monies? > > Perhaps you didn’t know Summers was an advocate for [Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act). Maybe you didn’t know that President Obama campaigned [on the premise](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123665023774979341.html) that the Act is at least partially responsible for the economic meltdown. > > Maybe you didn’t know that Larry Summers is Director of the White House’s National Economic Council How was that hidden? It has been brought up a lot. You can not hide what is common knowledge. The looters won. They always do. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/32 "2009-08-16T21:37:09Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Except that the doctors, insurance companies and drug companies would be in the room as well (paying $10m each at the door, but no one will ever know, because you know, we can’t have any transparency). > > This would be the plan they would agree on: > … > Everyone who disagrees with this plan is a rabble-rousing idiot, who is only complaining about it because Obama is black. Right. I’d call it _laissez-faire_ socialism. I think it would work well for the defense industry. Pentagon sits down with Boeing, et al, says, this is how much we have to work with, this is what we think we need. We’d like your input on that but whatever we come up with, you guys work it out among you to how the work will be spread. No more underbid over runs, no more pork and no more lobbying Congress. And competition in the best sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/33 "2009-08-16T21:41:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Maybe I don’t know the relevancy of any of this as it relates to the OP and transparancy? Re-read this from the OP: “Obama promised me that he’d tear the cloak of confidentiality from corruption and double dealing in our government. And …” Do I need to hash out how my post relates to the OP and transparency? Do I _really_? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/34 "2009-08-16T21:54:49Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Re-read this from the OP: “Obama promised me that he’d tear the cloak of confidentiality from corruption and double dealing in our government. And …” > > Do I need to hash out how my post relates to the OP and transparency? Do I _really_? Yes because your post is idiotic. All the things you stated are common knowledge and many happened years ago, so what exactly isn’t “transparant” here? This whole thread sounds like more Liberal bitching and moaning about Obama parting the seas instead of walking on top of them. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/35 "2009-08-16T22:02:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yes because your post is idiotic. All the things you stated are common knowledge and many happened years ago, so what exactly isn’t “transparant” here? I see. So AIG getting billions in bailout funds so they could make good on their derivatives bets with counterparties like Goldman happened years ago. And by years you meant months, correct? And the person chiefly responsible for that bailout (plus the decisions to let Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros fail as well) is not currently running the Treasury Department or giving advice on how hundreds of billions of dollars in blank checks should be spent? And you think people that have a past history of pulling strings in the background for their special friends and advocating in support views that led to our current situation, are going to all of a sudden be on the up and up? And **my** post is the one that’s idiotic? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > This whole thread sounds like more Liberal bitching and moaning about Obama parting the seas instead of walking on top of them. Can you give us one example of how the status quo has been changed? Just one? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/36 "2009-08-16T22:47:49Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Why does it have to be so binary? Every morning I wake up with the full intent of ending procrastination, of getting all my work done before lurking on the Dope, of getting on the treadmill and bathing regularly. I know that _this_ week Mrs. Dvl and I are gong to get to cleaning the basement, and know that at the end of the summer I am going to winterize the lawn mower and bring in all the necessary plants. > > Do I get to all of that? Have I achieved a Martha Stewart level of productivity in my life? Nope. Am I a lying sack-o-shit. Nope. Do I mean well, but find that my well-meaning plans are a bit over ambitious? Yep. > > This doesn’t give him a free pass, but it’s way too early to tell what he will and won’t be able to get done. It’s also politically naive to think he hasn’t or won’t have to make sacrifices in order to best prioritize and spend his political capital. I see your point and agree. I did mean that there’s bound to be a difference between the ideals that Obama talked about during his campaign and what he can realistically accomplish once in office. Some of that does depend on the support and vocalization of those who support his ideals. If we allow ourselves to be shouted down because we’re tired of politics then that in itself is choosing a course of inaction and allowing the opposition to hog the stage. That’s something we shouldn’t blame Obama for. My point was that it is possible that Obama’s campaign promises were not good intentions that he might not deliver but rather promises that he\* never \*intended to deliver. If that’s the case he can be blamed for that. I think we may only discover that by continuing to vigorously supporting those ideals rather than sit back waiting to see what he accomplishes without us. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/37 "2009-08-16T22:48:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > … > This whole thread sounds like more Liberal bitching and moaning about Obama parting the seas instead of walking on top of them. For the record, I am not a Liberal, I am an anarchist. I believe that left to our own devices with our God given wealth of resources (and some grudging technological help from Capital), we don’t need no middle-men to be equitable (fair and just) with each other. You may think of me as Ayn Rand on stimulants. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/38 "2009-08-17T01:08:28Z")
This thread has been an eye opener for me and I thank you all. I still maintain that Obama = Bush in BLACKFACE. So what to do? My thought is to develop a different view of government, one in which CEO’s snap the whip and make more than anybody else, but services to society with a living wage comes off the top. Laissez-faire Socialism in a nutshell. 1. Eliminate Congress as our bargaining agent with different industries. Congress under LS would merely authorize an amount of their choosing to be given to a particular sector to be divided among them by natural selection. No need for lobbyists, great Capitalism. 2. That’s all, folks. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/39 "2009-08-17T01:09:06Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > For the record, I am not a Liberal, I am an anarchist. I believe that left to our own devices with our God given wealth of resources (and some grudging technological help from Capital), we don’t need no middle-men to be equitable (fair and just) with each other. > > You may think of me as Ayn Rand on stimulants. Or not. So, out of touch with the evidence of reality is it? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626/40 "2009-08-17T01:14:29Z")
This thread has been an eye opener for me and I thank you all. I still maintain that Obama = Bush in BLACKFACE. So what to do? My thought is to develop a different view of government, one in which CEO’s snap the whip and make more than anybody else, but services to society with a living wage come off the top. Laissez-faire Socialism in a nutshell. 1. Eliminate Congress as our bargaining agent with different industries. Congress under LS would merely authorize an amount of their choosing to be given to a particular sector to be divided among them by natural selection. No need for lobbyists, great Capitalism. 2. That’s all, folks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democracy-without-transparency-is-tyranny/506626.md?page=1)