# Democrat Blasted for Remark on Revolution **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747 "2003-03-07T16:55:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/61 "2003-03-07T23:59:46Z")
**Avalonian** , I noticed you skipped this section of decembers OP: > [@](#): > > _by december_ > Of course, her comparison of the Green Mountain Boys to fundamentalist, Islamic terrorists is insulting and ignorant. Note that the Bin Laden cannot be regarded as any sort of “freedom fighter,” because he is not fighting for freedom. He’s fighting for religious tyranny – a theocracy. And, he’s fighting to kill Christians and Jews. I agree with this. Her comments were insulting and ignorant. Does anybody think that the comparison of OBL to the Green Mtn boys makes sense? > [@](#): > > _by december_ > In addition, her blithe assumption that the US might seize the land in Iraq is a way of calling the President a liar, since he has repeated affirmed that this is not his purpose. Since it has no basis, her assumption shows stupendous ignorance or anti-American bias or something. Yet, Ms. Kaptur has the power to help create our laws. to which **Avalonian** responds: > [@](#): > > Not only is december a pot calling a kettle black here (as he so often is), Spell it out for me because I just don’t get it. How is he calling the kettle black? > [@](#): > > _Avalonian_ > but my response to this is a big “So what?” What’s wrong with her disagreeing with Bush and doubting his motives? Gods Forbid that we have any disagreement in the halls of our government. Most people would think that her calling the president a liar about an issue as serious as invading Iraq with the intentions of seizing the land there is way out of line. Sure, she is entitled to say what she likes, free speech and all that. But that doesn’t make it ok to call the president a liar in the eyes of the voters. What she did is dumb. No reasonable person believes that the president is going attempting a land grab in Iraq. Bush isn’t interested in real estate there. Her statements were foolish and worthy of riducule, which is exactly what december was giving her. > [@](#): > > _Avalonian_ > Oh wait, that’s right… the Founding Fathers didn’t believe in disagreement. C’mon now. Did december make such an argument? > [@](#): > > _by december_ > Can’t we remove from public service Marcy Kaptur, Senator Patty Murray (who made somewhat similar comments), and Don Thomas as a package deal? > [@](#): > > _Avalonian’s response_ > Yes, let’s remove anyone who disagrees with Bush’s view of Islam from public office! That’s the American Way! All disagreement must be quashed, all those who voice their opinion must be silenced! Another straw man here. > [@](#): > > _Avalonian_ > Please… tell me you’re not supporting this crap, Debaser. It is a ridiculous OP, and it only gets worse as the thread continues. december set the tone of bullshit from his first post, so you can’t try to call him a victim now. Lets forget about the rest of the posts for now. Just the OP alone was enough to get a half dozen monkeys jumping on his back. December’s first post is tame by pit standards. People attacked him because he is december. I am not going to defend his every word. I don’t know who the three people are who he mentions. I do know that if my elected official said statements as foolish and ignorant as the ones quoted in that article then I would never vote for her again. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/62 "2003-03-08T00:24:50Z")
**Debaser** : First of all, you did a fine job pointing out the strawmen in my previous post. They were there deliberately. The reason I put them there was to point out (by example) that the OP was also full of strawmen, in accusing Kaptur of being anti-American and then criticizing her on that basis. And while we’re at it, this is also why this was a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The OP criticized Kaptur for implying that Bush is lying, an unsupported claim, while it makes the _equally_ unsupported claim that Kaptur is “Anti-American or something.” Did you miss that part? Is being called anti-American somehow preferable to being called a liar? This seems obvious to me. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*I am not going to defend his every word. I don’t know who the three people are who he mentions. I do know that if my elected official said statements as foolish and ignorant as the ones quoted in that article then I would never vote for her again. \*\* I agree with this, but again, it’s not what the OP said. You and **Mojo** may disagree with this opinion, but the OP recommended “removal” from office for the three people he mentioned, simply because of their opinions. He didn’t mention voting them out or the electoral process once. Not _once_. You have your spin on the OP and I have mine, but I think it’s pretty obvious either way that it makes some unsupportable claims, and **december** invited the reception he got. Further, based on his subsequent replies (which you wanted to forget, I know), I think he enjoys it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/63 "2003-03-08T14:05:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > The reason I put them there was to point out (by example) that the OP was also full of strawmen, in accusing Kaptur of being anti-American and then criticizing her on that basis. So two wrongs make a right? Maybe next time you should let the rest of us in on the secret that you are posting things that you didn’t believe. There is a word for that. 😛 > [@](#): > > And while we’re at it, this is also why this was a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The OP criticized Kaptur for implying that Bush is lying, an unsupported claim, while it makes the _equally_ unsupported claim that Kaptur is “Anti-American or something.” Did you miss that part? Is being called anti-American somehow preferable to being called a liar? This seems obvious to me. Well, it wasn’t obvious to me. Also you are clearly mis-quoting him there. He said "Since it has no basis, her assumption shows stupendous ignorance or anti-American bias or something. " I think that stupendous ignorance would explain her statements. As would anti-American bias. Or it may be something else. What’s wrong with this? > [@](#): > > He didn’t mention voting them out or the electoral process once. Not _once_. This is the pit. He could have said “can’t we just deport this dumb cunt to antarctica forever?” and it would be OK. Everything we say in the pit must be something that we mean literally? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/64 "2003-03-08T15:05:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **I agree with this. Her comments were insulting and ignorant. Does anybody think that the comparison of OBL to the Green Mtn boys makes sense?** I do, insofar as she made the comparison. Both the Green Mountain Boys and al-Qaeda are irregular combatants who use guerrilla warfare and terrorism to accomplish their goals. Their goals certainly differ (and I’m in a lot more agreement with the goals of the GMB than the goals of al-Qaeda), as does the scale of the violence used. However, that similarity exists. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/65 "2003-03-08T15:13:10Z")
So, what they are fighting for is different. And how they are fighting is different. Then, what is the same? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/66 "2003-03-08T15:14:02Z")
**Debaser** , if you look on page 1 of this thread you will find that several people found merit in her comments. The analogy was not **wholly** accurate. I don’t think anyone’s arguing that it is. But 1) it had more merit than I think **december** wanted to give it credit for and 2) it is not part of the democratic process to simply remove from office anyone with whom we disagree, else I’d declare “Everyone out Who Doesn’t Agree with Me” Day and the Senate and House would be cut by about half their members and replaced by dopers. :-p ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/67 "2003-03-08T15:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*So, what they are fighting for is different. And how they are fighting is different. Then, what is the same? \*\* What’s the same is that in both cases, you have non-military (or maybe para-military is the better word) groups engaging in terrorism against civilians and guerilla action against governmental/military groups to accomplish their goals. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/68 "2003-03-08T15:53:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > if you look on page 1 of this thread you will find that several people found merit in her comments. The analogy was not **wholly** accurate. I don’t think anyone’s arguing that it is. But 1) it had more merit than I think **december** wanted to give it credit for Accuracy is not the issue. I can remember when Senator Joseph McCarthy would look at a Democratic issue and observe that the Communists also supported it. That was literally true, but it was also a disgusting way to lump Democrats together with Communists. It was called “red-baiting.” Rep. Kaptur did a similar thing to the Founding Fathers, by associating them with OBL. I don’t think she meant to do, but it came out that way. > [@](#): > > 1. it is not part of the democratic process to simply remove from office anyone with whom we disagree It should be clear what I meant when I wrote, “Can’t we remove from public service [the 3 elected officials] as a package deal?” Obviously there is no serious way to have a “package deal” removing a Congresswoman, a Senator and a State Senator. My coment was obviously a dramatic way of expressing contempt for these three officials. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/69 "2003-03-08T15:56:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > **Debaser** , if you look on page 1 of this thread you will find that several people found merit in her comments. Yes, I know. Quite shocking. > [@](#): > > The analogy was not **wholly** accurate. I don’t think anyone’s arguing that it is. It looks like people are to me. **RickJay’s** lengthy post on the first page seems to argue that. > [@](#): > > But 1) it had more merit than I think **december** wanted to give it credit for No, it really doesn’t. Her comments throughout the entire artilcle were foolish and silly. Her analogy of the Green Mtn Boys to Osama Bin Laden is offensive and innacurate. > [@](#): > > and 2) it is not part of the democratic process to simply remove from office anyone with whom we disagree, else I’d declare “Everyone out Who Doesn’t Agree with Me” Day and the Senate and House would be cut by about half their members and replaced by dopers. **december** has already stated that he didn’t mean this literally. > [@](#): > > _by december_ > Avalonian, I wish she weren’t an elected representative, but stupidity and igorance isn’t legal grounds to remove someone from Congress. Like I said before: this is the pit. **december** could have said lets banish her to Antarctica if he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/70 "2003-03-08T16:04:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > What’s the same is that in both cases, you have non-military (or maybe para-military is the better word) groups engaging in terrorism against civilians and guerilla action against governmental/military groups to accomplish their goals. So, as **Mojo** pointed out: one could say that anti-abortion crusaders who kill abortion doctors are like EMTs, because they’re both trying to save lives. Or, Stalin was like Bill Clinton because they were both heads of state. This is silly. Just because an analogy has some shred of truth in it doesn’t mean it has merit. If the fact that “you have non-military groups engaging in terrorism against civilians and guerilla action against governmental/military groups to accomplish their goals” is the only similarity then why didn’t the good congresswoman compare the terrorists to the VC in Vietnam? Or the rebels in Chechnya? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/71 "2003-03-08T16:18:12Z")
How many civillians did the Green Mountain Boys target to kill? None. > [@](#): > > _Captain Amazing_: and I’m in a lot more agreement with the goals of the GMB than the goals of al-Qaeda Glad we cleared **that** up.:rolleyes: Who’s claimed that they don’t understand why the terrorists do what they did? Who is she making these justifications to? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/72 "2003-03-08T16:30:22Z")
Well, she could have compared them to either group. But why does it offend you she compared them to the Green Mountain Boys and wouldn’t offend you if she compared them to the VC or Chechens? Is it just because you admire the Green Mountain Boys and not the VC or Chechens? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/73 "2003-03-08T16:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*Who’s claimed that they don’t understand why the terrorists do what they did? Who is she making these justifications to? \*\* So far I can’t find anyone the GMB killed, although they did flog Benjamin Hough pretty severely. In the article, it says that she and her priest are going to be in this seminar about Catholic responses to the war, and I guess they’re going to be talking about the power of religion there. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/74 "2003-03-08T18:07:59Z")
[This is unbelievable. She’s not backing down a bit.](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Site=TO&Date=20030308&Category=NEWS08&ArtNo=103080200&Ref=AR) > [@](#): > > **Kaptur welcomes criticism as a way to amplify message** > > …U.S. Rep. Marcy Kaptur said yesterday that not only does she not regret comparing Osama bin Laden to American Revolutionary War figures, she’s happy for a greater platform to criticize the Bush administration’s handling of the brewing conflict with Iraq… > > She said her controversial comments in a Blade interview last week comparing al-Qaeda members to the American revolutionaries who “helped cast off the British crown” were meant to analogize the forces that motivate people to rebellion. > > “The remarks were intended to talk about revolution and the nature of revolution,” Miss Kaptur said… > > Yesterday, U.S. House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R., Ill.) said after an appearance at the Findlay Country Club that he was disappointed by Miss Kaptur’s comments. > > “I have hope that maybe Marcy misspoke on that,” he said. “There is no logic to it, and it is almost ridiculous. Al-Qaeda are people who are murderers. They are people who are in one sense religious fanatics, but they are out there to destroy the whole civilization, and that is certainly not the method of our forefathers.”… > > She thinks the President is making a tremendous mistake by being so critical of countries, such as France and Germany who oppose a war. > > She also said it’s a mistake to believe that defeating Iraq and capturing top al-Qaeda leaders will be enough to quiet the turmoil in the Middle East. Is she trying to lose the next election? In addition to comparing the Founders to OBL, she now wants the US to follow France and Germany’s foreign policy. Does she think voters feel positively toward France and Germany right now? :rolleyes: By the way, note her comment that it would be “a mistake to believe that defeating Iraq and capturing top al-Qaeda leaders will be enough to quiet the turmoil in the Middle East.” From right after Sept. 11, 2001 on, President Bush has said that this will be a long war, because we will have to deal with various terrorists all over the world. I guess she just wasn’t paying attention. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/75 "2003-03-08T19:19:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > Well, she could have compared them to either group. But why does it offend you she compared them to the Green Mountain Boys and wouldn’t offend you if she compared them to the VC or Chechens? Is it just because you admire the Green Mountain Boys and not the VC or Chechens? The point is that comparing them to any of these groups is ridiculous. Can somebody explain to me how the members of the international terrorist organization led by Bin Laden are being repressed in a similar way that the founders of the US were. Their agenda is the removal of all US troops from the middle east. This demand is unreasonable and not comparable to the American colonies being taxed by the English without representation. If you want to compare Bin Laden to someone try Timothy McVeigh, not Thomas Jefferson. Anyone who cannot see this may have some sort of axe to grind with America, or has some sort of twisted sympathy for Bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/76 "2003-03-08T19:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*:eek: > > Fuck off. \*\* Um, you might want to read that sentance again. He said that what that idiot doctor said was _worse_. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/77 "2003-03-09T04:33:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Rep. Kaptur did a similar thing to the Founding Fathers, by associating them with OBL. I don’t think she meant to do, but it came out that way.It should be clear what I meant when I wrote, “Can’t we remove from public service [the 3 elected officials] as a package deal?” Obviously there is no serious way to have a “package deal” removing a Congresswoman, a Senator and a State Senator. My coment was obviously a dramatic way of expressing contempt for these three officials. **december** , there are many people on this board where, reading there posts, I believe it is acceptable to infer from what they are saying. **Poly** , for example, is one, because I know that when I infer something from one of his posts, I can pretty generally tell if he meant for what he said to sound like that. With your posts that is not the case. For me, anyway. I can’t always tell, for example, if you mean to slam democrats in something you say or if it’s just the way you wrote it. And I am certainly not going to assume, given your sometimes-inflammatory posting history, that you were not serious when you said something … such as your remarks about removing people in government with whom we disagree. Regarding hyperbole and such (MHO, anyway:)). If someone is otherwise serious in a thread, and they make a remark about “removing [someone] from public office,” and it is not easy to see that they are joking, then I personally do not believe it is a valid defense to say it was “just for effect.” I do not see how it is obvious that **december** was not serious about his comment. If, OTOH, **december** had been using hyperbole and “for effect” statements in his OP, then it would be valid to say that he was not serious. But given how much of the OP _was_ serious, I don’t buy that it was for effect, or we were meant to infer that he wasn’t serious. > [@](#): > > Can somebody explain to me how the members of the international terrorist organization led by Bin Laden are being repressed in a similar way that the founders of the US were. Their agenda is the removal of all US troops from the middle east. This demand is unreasonable and not comparable to the American colonies being taxed by the English without representation. Consider them from the perspective of English citizens and royalty and such circa 1760s to … well, really early 1800s. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/78 "2003-03-09T04:36:29Z")
Their, there, whatever. My brain is dead after a ten-hour workday. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/79 "2003-03-09T04:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > \*\*Um, you might want to read that sentance again. He said that what that idiot doctor said was _worse_. \*\* :smack: You’re right! Dammit, I read “inexcusable” as _excusable_. Please accept my appology! :o ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747/80 "2003-03-09T07:06:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > I can’t always tell, for example, if you mean to slam democrats in something you say or if it’s just the way you wrote it. And I am certainly not going to assume, given your sometimes-inflammatory posting history, that you were not serious when you said something … such as your remarks about removing people in government with whom we disagree. Note that the 3 people I was complaining about are not all Democrats. One is a Republican. **Guinastasia** , your apology is accepted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-blasted-for-remark-on-revolution/159747.md?page=5)