# "Democrat" Zell Miller to Honour Swift Boat Vets?!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-zell-miller-to-honour-swift-boat-vets/280421 "2004-12-17T21:27:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-zell-miller-to-honour-swift-boat-vets/280421/181 "2005-01-14T20:31:49Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Implying that Bush supported the confederacy and its accompanying views, namely slavery. You have another way to interpret his actions in question, or is it that you’re not aware of them? [Link ‘N’ Learn](http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/16/s.carolina.flag/) > [@](#): > > Well, read the speech. Bzzt. The old “My post is my cite” fallacy. Show us where it isn’t supported or supportable. > [@](#): > > _(4) It then includes jingoistic, but unrelated, examples of American Greatness (or perhaps American Tragedy)_ Where’s the jingoism? > [@](#): > > _(5) It’s totally hypocritical, in that the previous democratic president, or perhaps the father of the current democratic president, did exactly the same thing several years earlier_ > > I’m not sure about this one. But, Jesse Jackson is a hypocritical race-baiter who plays the race card and uses bullying tactics to serve his own interest and the interets of his coalition. IOW you know the speech you did link is not an example of that. > [@](#): > > But the point has been made. In your dreams, homeboy. You’re 0 for 5. \*\* 0.\*\* > [@](#): > > Zell Miller’s speech was by no means unique. Probably not. But the speech you linked was not another example. What else ya got? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-zell-miller-to-honour-swift-boat-vets/280421/182 "2005-01-14T22:12:25Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > _(1) It doesn’t just attack a single individual, it attacks an entire party_ > _(2) It accuses them of something that is despicably Unamerican, like hating freedom. Accusing them of being not wholly sensitive to the plight of the urban working poor is not good enough_ > > Implying that Bush supported the confederacy and its accompanying views, namely slavery. First of all, this post may be a bit hard to follow, due to the lack of automatic quoting of quotes. What a pain. Anyhow, in response to what you wrote, it appears that I should have been a bit more clear. The important thing is not only that (1) it doesn’t just attack a single individual, and (2) it accuses them of something Unamerican, but that (1) and (2) refer to the same accusation. In your example, even if we accept your analysis of both snippets from Jackson’s speech, he’s accusing “Republicans” of being “illusorily inclusive” and then accusing just Bush of standing by the confederate flag. This is opposed to Miller who accuses ALL democrats of not loving Freedom. As for the specific quote about the confederate flag, it’s important to look at it in context: > [@Jesse Jackson](#): > > In this diversity is our strength. Mr. Bush stood with Jefferson Davis and the Confederate flag in South Carolina and Abe Lincoln and the American flag in Baltimore, but Mr. Gore and Lieberman can say: One America, one flag. He’s not really accusing Bush of being a racist. He’s accusing him (ironically) of being a flip flopper and a pandered. So he’s taking one factual incident (Bush supported South Carolina’s right to fly the confederate flag) and mentioning it once, in passing, in one paragraph. He’s NOT then harping on that, drawing conclusions from that, making vague insinuations based on that, etc. > [@](#): > > _(3) It totally fails to support its claim, and its claim can in fact only be supported through very shaky logic_ > > Well, read the speech. I did. It’s a pretty typical campaign speech, meaning it says a few bad things about the opponents and a lot of good things about the candidates. In fact, (3) doesn’t even apply. In Miller’s case, he’s spending paragraph after paragraph trying to make One Single Point (democrats don’t love freedom), supporting it with shaky logic. What’s the One Single Point that Jackson is trying to make? > [@](#): > > _(4) It then includes jingoistic, but unrelated, examples of American Greatness (or perhaps American Tragedy)_ Oh, come on. Again, it’s a question of context. If Miller’s speech had said “First, democrats hate freedom. Second, this is the greatest country in the world. USA USA USA USA” I wouldn’t be mentioning the jingoism. The problem is that he uses this jingoistic American-soldiers-are-awesome business in order to attempt to further smear his opponents. Jackson does no such thing. Jingoism for its own sake is part and parcel of just about every political speech ever made. Jingoism which attempts to smear democrats is what makes Miller’s speech particularly odious. > [@](#): > > _(5) It’s totally hypocritical, in that the previous democratic president, or perhaps the father of the current democratic president, did exactly the same thing several years earlier_ > > I’m not sure about this one. But, Jesse Jackson is a hypocritical race-baiter who plays the race card and uses bullying tactics to serve his own interest and the interets of his coalition. Maybe. And Zell Miller is someone who wishes to shoot people dead with guns. What’s the relevance? We’re discussing the speech itself. > [@](#): > > Maybe not 5 for 5. But the point has been made. Both sides have people who are brought to the convention to make political speeches that demonize the opposing party. It’s politics. Zell Miller’s speech was by no means unique. I just plain don’t agree with your analysis. If you got 100 impartial observers, had them read each speech, and then asked them “on a scale of 1 to 10, how true is it that the overall message of this speech is one of demonizing the speaker’s opponents”, do you think that you’d get even close to the same average response for Miller’s speech as for Jackson’s? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-zell-miller-to-honour-swift-boat-vets/280421/183 "2005-01-20T19:42:40Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Fair enough, then. By all means, quote us a democratic convention speech from 2000 or 1996 that is anywhere near the equal of Miller’s. Remember, to really be as bad as Miller’s speech, your example should include ALL of the following characteristics: > (1) It doesn’t just attack a single individual, it attacks an entire party > (2) It accuses them of something that is despicably Unamerican, like hating freedom. Accusing them of being not wholly sensitive to the plight of the urban working poor is not good enough > (3) It totally fails to support its claim, and its claim can in fact only be supported through very shaky logic > (4) It then includes jingoistic, but unrelated, examples of American Greatness (or perhaps American Tragedy) > (5) It’s totally hypocritical, in that the previous democratic president, or perhaps the father of the current democratic president, did exactly the same thing several years earlier > Well, not in the sense of “gee, I wonder if he was talking about the Republicans or not”. But it’s stuck in their in a weird place. Let’s put it this way: If Al Sharpton and his speechwriters wanted to accuse Republicans of viciousness, they could have done so in a far more direct and clear fashion. And if they wanted to “go negative”, they could have done so in some fashion other than in a supporting clause in the middle of a paragraph. > > Anyhow, here’s a question for you: Has your opinion about Miller’s speech changed over the course of this thread? Because if you’d come in way back at the beginning of this thread (why, it seems like last year!) and said “sure, Miller’s speech had some problems. But that’s the way convention speeches are, full of rah rah pumping up and shameless insults”, and PARTICULARLY if you’d given an example of an equally contemptible speech from a recent democratic convention, you would have saved the poor hamsters a LOT of effort. **Bricker** , I realize there are a lot of other more recently active threads going on, but I’m still waiting for an example of an equally negative Dem speech of recent vintage, plus an answer to my question in the last paragraph. Sorry for reviving a dying thread, but I’m definitely interested in reading your response. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-zell-miller-to-honour-swift-boat-vets/280421/184 "2012-07-25T00:29:31Z")
Sorry for the necro, this thread was linked in another thread ([ID demanding GOP vote-suppressors](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15305495)). > [@Bricker](#): > > And if you have an answer: SPECIFICALLY, what does that law do to stifile criticism? [The patriot act and disruptors](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/12/AR2005121201448.html). As Mr. Svinlesha pointed out though, the creaking sound is a shifting goalpost. > [@Bricker](#): > > The claim was that my side is passing laws to stifle criticism. > [@gobear](#): > > The worst my side will do is argue with you, but your party wants to enact laws to stifle criticism, Memory lapse, perhaps. No problem, not hard to demonstrate [motive](http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Lawsuit_reveals_Bush_Administration_attempts_to_suppress_dissent). > [@Bricker](#): > > If I had been eligible, I would have gone. Always nice to see fine Christian values promulgated. Was it in Luke or Matthew where Jesus said “slay the idolaters wherever ye find them”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrat-zell-miller-to-honour-swift-boat-vets/280421.md?page=9)