# Democratic bigotry in denouncing the "Southern Strategy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471 "2002-12-23T02:55:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/101 "2002-12-23T21:56:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I have the reference at home. I’ll post it later. I promise. I just want to be clear. If you speak at Bob Jones University, you are a racist? You support racism? What exactly does speaking at Bob Jones University prove about the person who speaks? From my own experience of working with people from Bob Jones it means you are only likely to. In the case of Bush he wants to affirm that he supports southern values like banning interracial dating, women who wear pants, and gays(the last two are from people I know who go to or got kicked out of Bob Jones). Here are a few articles I came across. [http://www.thenewrepublic.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20021230&s=wildman123002](http://www.thenewrepublic.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20021230&s=wildman123002) > [@](#): > > On its own, the case might not have been enough to stain Sessions with the taint of racism, but there was more. Senate Democrats tracked down a career Justice Department employee named J. Gerald Hebert, who testified, albeit reluctantly, that in a conversation between the two men Sessions had labeled the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) “un-American” and “Communist-inspired.” Hebert said Sessions had claimed these groups “forced civil rights down the throats of people.” In his confirmation hearings, Sessions sealed his own fate by saying such groups could be construed as “un-American” when “they involve themselves in promoting un-American positions” in foreign policy. Hebert testified that the young lawyer tended to “pop off” on such topics regularly, noting that Sessions had called a white civil rights lawyer a “disgrace to his race” for litigating voting rights cases. Sessions acknowledged making many of the statements attributed to him but claimed that most of the time he had been joking, saying he was sometimes “loose with [his] tongue.” He further admitted to calling the Voting Rights Act of 1965 a “piece of intrusive legislation,” a phrase he stood behind even in his confirmation hearings. [http://www.salon.com/politics/wire/2002/12/20/segregation/index.html](http://www.salon.com/politics/wire/2002/12/20/segregation/index.html) > [@](#): > > N.C. rep. admits to “segregationist feelings” [http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2002/12/20/2002122033396.htm](http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2002/12/20/2002122033396.htm) > [@](#): > > U.S. Rep. James Clyburn, South Carolina’s only black congressman, said, "Trent Lott’s resignation is something Republicans sought and have received, but the policies he expressed still dominate Republican politics. ---
**Author:** ![Saxman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Saxman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saxman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/102 "2002-12-23T21:58:31Z")
[This article](http://slate.msn.com/id/2075453/) asserts it’s merely wishful thinking that Strom Thurmond has repudiated his past. On the other hand, Robert Byrd [clearly has](http://slate.msn.com/id/2075662/): > [@](#): > > See, for example, this exchange with CNN’s Bernard Shaw in Dec. 1993: > > \*\*Q: What has been your biggest mistake and your biggest success? \*\* > > **A: Well, it’s easy to state what has been my biggest mistake. The greatest mistake I ever made was joining the Ku Klux Klan. And I’ve said that many times. But one cannot erase what he has done. He can only change his ways and his thoughts. That was an albatross around my neck that I will always wear. You will read it in my obituary that I was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.** > > Contrast that with an interview Thurmond gave Joseph Stroud of the Charlotte Observer in July 1998 to commemorate the 50th anniversary of his presidential bid on the segregationist Dixiecrat ticket. Asked if he wanted to apologize, Thurmond said, “I don’t have anything to apologize for,” and “I don’t have any regrets.” Asked if he thought the Dixiecrats were right, Thurmond said, “Yes, I do.” Thurmond said this _four years_ ago! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/103 "2002-12-23T21:58:48Z")
**Bob** , I do not for a moment contend that bigots are anywhere near a majority of the Republican Party, either in voters or in candidates. You may find my three qualified contentions above: some elected bigots, too much pandering to racists, and an explicit strategy of the national leadership to achieve national power by (when tactically appropriate) appealing to white Southern bigotry. Your hypothetical would not dissuade me of any of those contentions. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/104 "2002-12-23T22:00:49Z")
**Airman:** > [@](#): > > I want proof that this “Southern Strategy” exists RIGHT NOW, and how many of the current Republican Congressmen are racist. You obviously believe they are, so PROVE IT. **Scylla:** > [@](#): > > What I’m asking for is rational proof for the assertion that the current Republican leadership and elected representatives are either generally bigoted disproportionate to the Democrats or that they have been pursuing an agenda of pandering to racism in the recent elections. Y’all are willing to give me the million-dollar research grant necessary to take on an ongoing project of such broad scope and methodological rigor, right? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/105 "2002-12-23T22:03:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\ ***Bob** , I do not for a moment contend that bigots are anywhere near a majority of the Republican Party, either in voters or in candidates. You may find my three qualified contentions above: some elected bigots, too much pandering to racists, and an explicit strategy of the national leadership to achieve national power by (when tactically appropriate) appealing to white Southern bigotry. Your hypothetical would not dissuade me of any of those contentions. \*\* minty, I understand the “some elected bigots.” Is “too much pandering to racists” the same as “any pandering to racists”? Would you assign this same descritption to the Dems? And I’m still not getting the current evidence of “an explicit strategy of the national leadership to achieve national power by (when tactically appropriate) appealing to white Southern bigotry.” Again, if I’m being thick about it, this thread ain’t helping me see the light. Thanks for responding. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/106 "2002-12-23T22:06:10Z")
No, what I want to see is: a)It doesn’t exist as a policy of the Republican Party as a whole OR b)Not enough evidence exists to make that kind of claim OR c)I think it’s the case but I can’t prove it, therefore I won’t make those accusations again until I can prove it. I don’t think that’s unreasonable at all. In fact, to claim something without proof is downright dishonest, and that’s what bothers me about this whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/107 "2002-12-23T22:11:53Z")
By the way, **Airman Doors** , do you still contend that the “White Pride” movement is “a reflection of how sick and tired they are with the racist bullshit that invariably comes up, usually at the expense of whites”? That “some of these ‘separatist’ groups are just doing what the Black leaders have advocated for Blacks since the 60’s. They’re choosing to live the way they want to, away from the racism bullshit. There’s nothing inherently ‘evil’ about that”? That “I can’t think of a more racist group of people than the blacks”? I don’t usually dredge up ancient history, but your current assessment of those statements would seem to be germane to your perspective on this discussion. [Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=67763). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/108 "2002-12-23T22:14:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\*Y’all are willing to give me the million-dollar research grant necessary to take on an ongoing project of such broad scope and methodological rigor, right? \*\* Not at all. If you wish to make an assertion, it’s up to you to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/109 "2002-12-23T22:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > Is “too much pandering to racists” the same as “any pandering to racists”? Hypothetically, any pandering to racists is too much pandering. But in terms of which party to support with one’s vote, demanding abolute purity isn’t really an option. Taken as a whole, the Republican party does too much pandering to racists, and too little condemnation of either the racists or the panderers, for me to support them with their vote (though I happily split my ticket for individual Republicans). ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/110 "2002-12-23T22:22:28Z")
Touche, **minty**. It’s been a good long time since I wrote that. I read it now with no small amount of shame. My circumstances, my attitudes, hell, my whole life has changed since then. Note the date: April of last year. That was when I was feeling bad about where I was, what I was doing, and I was looking for someone to blame. For what I wrote then, I am indeed sorry. I would hope that as time has gone on, you’d note that the tone of my posts, even the language has changed substantially. I’d like to think I’ve matured since then, but that judgment is up to you. Now that my credibility is totally shot, not that I ever had any to begin with, I’ll just melt away. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/111 "2002-12-23T22:28:05Z")
My cite does not say that liberals have spoken at BJU. It says that they are hypocrites for suggesting Bush is a racist or a homophobe for having done so. BJU is a Christian School and Bush is a Christian. BJU has is also arguably anti-catholic in it’s docrine. I do not consider Bush anti-catholic for having spoken there. If whether or not you are a racist or a homophobe is defined by whom you speak with, than I will certainly accept that Bush is a homophope and a racist for having spoken at BJU. By the same token, during the 2000 Presidential election Bill Bradley, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore all publically met with the Reverend Al Sharpton who has repeatedly made anti-semitic and racist remarks. My favorite is when he said to a Tel Aviv heckler “I am in Hell already. I am in Israel.” So I will gladly concede that if you’re tendencies are defined by with whom you meet and speak with that Bush is both a homophope and a racist. Of course that means Bill Bradley, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore are racist anti-semites by the same criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/112 "2002-12-23T22:29:52Z")
**Scylla:** > [@](#): > > Not at all. If you wish to make an assertion, it’s up to you to back it up. We’ve backed it up. Just not with double-blind peer reviewed studies that instantiate our findings up to last Tuesday. The rigor you’re demanding is unreasonable. It would, literally, be the subject of a sweeping grant. And given the muddiness of the data–what would be sufficient to constitute “an agenda of pandering to racism in the recent elections” to you? speeches? internal memos?–it might well be impossible to prove to your standards even if true. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/113 "2002-12-23T22:32:47Z")
Damn, now I feel bad. ☹ For the record, I believe every word you just wrote, **Airman**. I’ve seen you grow and change more than a bit during your time here. That thread was my first encounter with you, and it’s stuck with me ever since. I can’t tell you how glad I am to see you come back now and repudiate it. Thank you, and I apologize for the bad mojo of bringing it back up. For my part, I will be more than happy to have you rejoin this or any other discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/114 "2002-12-23T22:37:37Z")
**Scylla:** _I have stated in my Op that there are individual cases of racism or pandering in the Republican party. That is not for debate._ And I assume you’re also accepting that there **was** a cohesive Republican Southern strategy of, at best, soft-pedaling repudiation of racism, at worst, repudiating civil rights, in order to attract white conservative voters with racial prejudices. A very interesting study of this phenomenon is a recent book by Earl Black and Merle Black, _The Rise of Southern Republicans_. Earl Black and other Southern political scientists are quoted in a recent Atlanta Journal-Constitution article on Republicans and race: > [@](#): > > "What Lott said unmasked for a modern audience what had been obscured about the way the Republican Party grew in the South,’’ Ferrel Guillory said. Guillory is director of the Program on Southern Politics, Media and Public Life at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. > > "It allowed itself to become the vehicle for the resistance of social and racial change,’’ Guillory said. “It paid the price of being on the wrong side of history in terms of the way the country changed.” […] > > Black […] said, “The Southern Republican Party, back in the Goldwater era, clearly tried, especially in the deep South, to jump-start their party by being the party of white, racial conservatives.” […] > > Other examples of national Republicans and race: > > \> In a close U.S. Senate race six years ago against black Charlotte architect Harvey Gantt, Republican Jesse Helms ran a television ad showing the white hands of a man crumpling up a job application as the narrator lamented the supposed minority preferences offered by affirmative action. > > \> Attorney General John Ashcroft gave an interview to the neo-Confederate magazine Southern Partisan in 1998 and delivered the 1999 commencement address at Bob Jones University. > > […] “Some of those practices that are wicked and wrong and immoral,” UNC’s Guillory said, "are what a lot of white people were trying to preserve when they switched from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party.’’ The interesting question—and I wish you had asked it a trifle less belligerently in the OP, because it really is worth some considered discussion—is whether this strategy has **now** been repudiated in the Republican Party overall. The article linked above also discusses some hopeful signs in that regard: > [@](#): > > Bush has placed African-Americans at the power center of his presidency and has tried to bring Hispanics, Asian-Americans and other minorities into the party. > > “One of the things Bush has been trying to do, I think, is to move the Republican Party in the direction of the party of Lincoln,” said Earl Black, political science professor at Houston’s Rice University. > > “George Bush is now the role model for a whole generation of Southern Republicans,” Black said. “The last thing they want is to be put in a position where they are seen as defending the indefensible.” […] > > “I truly believe that we have moved beyond racism in the Republican Party,” said Nancy Zirkin, deputy director of the Leadership Council on Civil Rights, a Washington coalition of 180 advocacy groups. So, is the Republican “Southern strategy” really dead? I may be being too optimistic, but I think it is. However—and this is where I think some of the heated conflict here is coming from—it didn’t die all that long ago, and it still twitches now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/115 "2002-12-23T22:45:21Z")
gadarene: > [@](#): > > The rigor you’re demanding is unreasonable. Nonsense. An agenda of racist pandering and racism is a serious charge. It demands rigorous proof before it can be responsibly made. Failure to do so leaves one open to my charge, which is that the current Democratic cries of “racism,” are being made simply to protect the black vote which the Republicans have been courting, that these charges are being made without regard for their substance simply for political gain. It is the most egregious form of mudslinging to cast such vile aspersions without proof, and for such petty gain. It is pandering to fears of racism. It is deliberately maintaining the status quo of fear and race tension for political gain. It is the tactic of the worst kind of scum in the world. It’s what Bill Clinton did. It would not take very much work to look at the Southern midterm Senate races and obtain overviews of the campaigns and issues to determine whether pandering to racism or overt racism went on. They are all recent news, and should be readily available on the internet. If I felt that the Republicans were being racist, I could probably examine and collate the evidence in an hour to back up my assertion, and show the current form of the pandering “Southern Southern” strategy is alive and well, and racism and pandering to bigotry is part of the Repbulican agenda. Doubtless, I could pull up as many individual Democrats doing or saying things that could be construed as racist as I would care to find. These incidents by themselves tell me nothing, no matter how many I find until by themselves. They need a context to interpret their meaning. I have provided one means for a context, there are others. Individual dots by themselves do not constitute a scattergram. They have to be interpolated, scaled and related to one another. So far all I’ve seen is dots on the wall, and many of them are quite arguable. I don’t beleive speaking at BJU constitutes an endorsement of racism any more than meeting with Al Sharpton constitutes an agenda of anti-semitism. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/116 "2002-12-23T22:47:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > An agenda of racist pandering and racism is a serious charge. It demands rigorous proof before it can be responsibly made. And remember, you can’t prove an agenda of racist pandering with any number of examples of racist pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/117 "2002-12-23T22:52:48Z")
Kimstu: What the Southern strategy **was** is really outside of the scope of what I’m trying to do here, just as the record of Al Gore’s father and other Democrats during the onset of the civil rights era has little bearing on the Democratic party of today. It’s an interesting topic, but 'prolly for another thread. I don’t wish to argue historic racism and pandering in either party. I wish those that beleive that the Republican party is currently racist, or pandering to racism can demonstrate that this is so by an analysis of the current elected representatives and their most recent campaigns as compared to the Democratic party. A simple systematic comparison of a sample of equivalent campaigns and representatives both Democrat and Republican would do the trick. I may decide to do it myself. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/118 "2002-12-23T22:55:41Z")
**Scylla** , do you understand our frustration with the loaded language and high hurdles of the OP…even a little bit? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/119 "2002-12-23T23:01:39Z")
Do Senators Hollings and Byrd, combined with Jesse “Hymietown” Jackson and Al Sharpton, lead you to a similar assessment of the Dems? If not, please explain why these examples lead you to a different conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471/120 "2002-12-23T23:01:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*And remember, you can’t prove an agenda of racist pandering with any number of examples of racist pandering. \*\* No. You can’t. If I were to decide that Democrats were generally liars and had an agenda of lying compared to Republicans, and wanted to make that assertion, would you consider that assertion proven if I gave you 2 dozen examples of Democrats lying in the last 10 years? If the answer is “yes.” let me know. The fallacy is that I am not sampling representatively. I would just be looking for Democratic liars, and I would likely find as many examples as I cared to search for. To make the assertion meaningful, I would need to put it into context, I would need to take the “dots” which are the individual examples and construct the scattergram. Dots by themselves are worthless. Obviously to make a meaningful argument I need to compare and contrast a pool of Democrats **and** Republicans and see if a pattern emerges. If I just search and select Democratic lies than I am creating the pattern. You all are creating the pattern by selecting for it. That’s why individual examples are worthless. You should know this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-bigotry-in-denouncing-the-southern-strategy/144471.md?page=7)