# Democratic lawmakers in Maryland: You suck! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844 "2006-02-03T15:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/1 "2006-02-03T15:56:05Z")
Let me say right off the bat that the issue here is one that I don’t support at all, but the tactics employed by the Democrats here to block it are disgusting. Some background. A couple of weeks ago, a Maryland judge found that a state law that defines marriage as something between a man and a woman is discriminatory and unconstitutional. This caused some Maryland Republicans to get their peepees in a panic that gay people might wind up treated like actual human beings, so Delegate Dwyer introduced a bill that would put an amendment banning gay marriage on the ballot for the voters to decide. This initiative was slated to die in committee, but Del. Dwyer, busy little homophobe that he is, managed to get 47 signatures from other delegates petitioning that the bill be removed from committee and placed directly on the floor of the house. Before he could present this petition, one he had properly obtained in full compliance with the procedural rules of the Maryland legislature, House Speaker Michael E. Busch _declared a recess and shut down the legislature_ so they wouldn’t have to debate the issue in open session. The bill then died in committee that afternoon (and in a very clever way. Democrats managed to attach a rider that allowed civil unions to the bill, and then nobody voted for it. Not the Republicans nor the Democrats. hehe. All in accordance with the rules) WTF??!? Seriously, what the fucking fuck?? Speaker Busch, you may not like the provisions of the proposed amendment. _I_ sure as hell don’t like the provisions of the proposed amendment, but what you did was just wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The Maryland house isn’t your personal ideological playground. We citizens of the state of Maryland are not your personal serfs, standing around, hats in hand, waiting to be told how to think by your grand poo-bah-ness. If the opposition party follows the rules and gets their proposals on the ballot, then we should have the chance to vote on them, regardless of weather or not you agree with them. Look, this is a case where I personally like the outcome. I vehemently oppose the homophobic and discriminatory DOMA and it’s state counterparts, but the rules are the rules, and you can’t just shut down the legislature in a fit of pique. (This isn’t really anything new for Busch, he’s been using every sleazy trick in his bag to keep the proposal to allow slots at Md. racetracks from being voted on for the past 4 years because he knows a majority of Marylanders support it while he personally opposes it) I am so tired of legislates who think they know whats best for the rabble imposing their will on us by hook or by crook. If a measure has enough support to make it to the floor of the house, and then on to us the voters, then LET US VOTE ON IT! Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/2 "2006-02-03T16:02:32Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > full compliance with the procedural rules of the Maryland legislature Was what Busch did also within the rules? If so, what’s the bitch? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/3 "2006-02-03T17:18:48Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Was what Busch did also within the rules? If so, what’s the bitch? According to the Republicans who oppose Busch’s action, what he did was, in fact, within the rules. As Dwyer [said](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/politics/bal-marriage0202,1,2124977.story?coll=bal-mdpolitics-headlines): > [@](#): > > “As soon as the speaker sensed we were going to put this on the floor, he shut this down,” Dwyer said. **"He may have that authority, but I don’t think he has that right."** And Governor Robert Ehrlich, a Republican also oppsed to gay marriage, also weighed in: > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. scolded House leadership for what he said was an “abuse of the spirit of the rules.” The spirit, not the letter. What we essentially have here is the Republicans trying to subvert normal procedure by manoeuvering around the established committee that was due to meet and vote on the issue, and the Democrats responding by also subverting normal procedure. Both methods were legal; both were against the spirit of the system. Business as usual in American politics. Busch also pointed out: > [@](#): > > “The committee is going to vote this afternoon. It would be disingenuous to the public who attended a hearing to suddenly circumvent the committee’s opportunity to vote on a bill,” he said. “We have said to everyone from the beginning that we will have a full and open debate.” Citizens and interest groups had already appeared in front of the committee to put their case. Why not let the committee vote? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/4 "2006-02-03T18:14:05Z")
Wow, this OP is funny on so many levels. One would almost think it is brilliant parody if one had never read any of Dave’s posts. I mean a batshit crazy republican whining about clever use of parliamentary procedure to defeat ones opponents. I am curious Dave how did you feel about the Republican threats to employ the “Nucular Opption”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/5 "2006-02-03T18:19:17Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Wow, this OP is funny on so many levels. One would almost think it is brilliant parody if one had never read any of Dave’s posts. I mean a batshit crazy republican whining about clever use of parliamentary procedure to defeat ones opponents. I am curious Dave how did you feel about the Republican threats to employ the “Nucular Opption”? To be fair to Dave-and keep in mind, I disagree with him here-I don’t believe he’s a Republican. (Or a Democrat, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/6 "2006-02-03T18:20:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To be fair to Dave-and keep in mind, I disagree with him here-I don’t believe he’s a Republican. (Or a Democrat, for that matter). **weirddave** , for some reason unknown and indecipherable to me, does indeed claim to be a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/7 "2006-02-03T18:42:40Z")
I think he thinks it gives him street cred, or whatever this board is if not a street. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/8 "2006-02-03T18:47:06Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Wow, this OP is funny on so many levels. One would almost think it is brilliant parody if one had never read any of Dave’s posts. I mean a batshit crazy republican whining about clever use of parliamentary procedure to defeat ones opponents. I am curious Dave how did you feel about the Republican threats to employ the “Nucular Opption”? Well, there is a difference here. The “nuclear option” was threatened but never employed, thus it can be seen as a ploy to get something through that was being obstructed. This is discussing the actual obstruction of stuff that a few people don’t want to hit the floor because they’ll lose. Note that one is actually happening while the other never did. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/9 "2006-02-03T18:56:05Z")
Would it have been better if the Speaker only threatened a recess in response to petition being circulated, causing them to throw the petition in the trash? I don’t see it as being materially different. I don’t really mind this, it’s just political gamesmanship. One group created some crappy legislation destined to fail. They play a game to get it voted on directly. The opposition bats it back with their own technically allowable action. Then the bill dies, just like it would have anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/10 "2006-02-03T18:58:45Z")
In the final analysis this is just a fact of life for politicians. Look at some of the “untraditional” things we’ve seen just in the past couple years. The “Nuclear Option”, Texas Senators leaving the state to break Quorum or block a redistricting bill, Texas Governor threatening to re-write the rules of the state senate to achieve with a simple majority what the rules currently require a super-majority for, the “closed session” of the US Senate to discuss the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence’s Phase 2 report. The list goes on and on. Those of us who think all these kinds of tactics are bullshit to avoid actual conflict and compromise are just shit out of luck. Both parties do it and both suck. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/11 "2006-02-03T19:00:15Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Well, there is a difference here. The “nuclear option” was threatened but never employed, thus it can be seen as a ploy to get something through that was being obstructed. This is discussing the actual obstruction of stuff that a few people don’t want to hit the floor because they’ll lose. > > Note that one is actually happening while the other never did. For that specific example, sure. However, Tom Delay was famous for not allowing votes on bills through parliamentary procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/12 "2006-02-03T19:07:01Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > This is discussing the actual obstruction of stuff that a few people don’t want to hit the floor because they’ll lose. Cite? If the Dems have enough of a majority to hold the Speaker’s chair and run all of the committees, isn’t it logical to assume that they could also block this on the floor? It sounds to me like the sponsor just wanted to obstruct the committee vote because he knew _he’d_ lose. In either case, both the Speaker’s and the sponsor’s actions were with the letter of the rules. Nothing else to see here, move along… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/13 "2006-02-03T19:08:04Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Both parties do it and both suck. Yep, if either party fights _back_, you can say “They both fight”. :rolleyes: Let’s go over your list: > [@](#): > > The “Nuclear Option” Threatened by the GOP, in response to worries that a filibuster by nearly half the elected members of the Senate might succeed. Maybe you could claim that filibustering itself is something “they both do”, but then they always have, and there’s a damn good reason to have it available. > [@](#): > > Texas Senators leaving the state to break Quorum or block a redistricting bill A redistricting done outside the legal practice of once every 10 years, and in clear violation of the Voting Rights Act at that. Yet it’s the fighting \*back \* that you deplore. > [@](#): > > Texas Governor threatening to re-write the rules of the state senate to achieve with a simple majority what the rules currently require a super-majority for And which party is he? > [@](#): > > the “closed session” of the US Senate to discuss the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence’s Phase 2 report. No, to discuss the GOP chairman’s refusal to convene the hearings he’d promised on the administration’s use of intelligence before the Iraq invasion. He still hasn’t done it. Perhaps both parties do it and both suck, but you wouldn’t know it from that list. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/14 "2006-02-03T19:46:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A redistricting done outside the legal practice of once every 10 years, and in clear violation of the Voting Rights Act at that. Yet it’s the fighting **back** that you deplore. I made my stance on the redistricting issue [very clear](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=198134). > [@Mtgman](#): > > It seems the [Texas] GOP majority intends to do everything they can to solidify their power base except run candidates who can beat the Democrats … In the last federal congressional elections [2000] there were six Democratic incumbents who weren’t even facing Republican opposition(and two who didn’t face opposition from any party, green, libertarian, independent, etc). > … > The part which bothers me most is the threat to do away with the rules of procedure in the senate to further weaken your opposition instead of compromising. This seems antithetical to the idea of compromise and fairness and smacks of the tyranny of the majority. Over a third of the senators think this is a bad idea, so instead of winning them over, we’ll change the rules. As a firm believer in democracy, I don’t like to see it railroaded like this. Majority rule, with minority rights, not majority dictatorship with minority disenfranchisement. None of this, however, has any bearing on my current statements. I do not appreciate it when either of our suck-ass political parties in the US engage in bullshit manipulations of completely unrelated procedures/powers to influence an issue they don’t want to have to deal with head on. Our legislative processes are fucked up enough as it is, witness some of the stupid shit which gets passed, when the process is followed directly. Influencing the process through extra little tricks like this is just going to make it even more fucked up. Sit down, talk about the fucking idea on its merits, then vote your conscience and with the best interests of your constituents as they empowered you to do. Period. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/15 "2006-02-03T20:01:03Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Cite? If the Dems have enough of a majority to hold the Speaker’s chair and run all of the committees, isn’t it logical to assume that they could also block this on the floor? If my understanding of the issue is correct, it is by no means certain that all Democrats would vote the same way if this measure made it to the floor. There are considerable numbers of people in Maryland who are strong Democratic voters but who also are strongly opposed to same sex marriage. And, especially in districts where this might be an important issue, the feeling seems to be that many Democratic lawmakers will vote against SSM rather than risk offending a large proportion of their consitutents. Right here in Baltimore, for example, the city itself is a Democratic stronghold; the Republicans have basically no chance around here. But Baltimore also has a large number of Democratic voters who oppose gay marriage. And this is true among substantial groups of both black and white Democratic voters, although what i’ve read suggests that, as a whole, the black community is more strongly oppsed to SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/16 "2006-02-03T20:28:14Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If my understanding of the issue is correct, it is by no means certain that all Democrats would vote the same way if this measure made it to the floor. I get that, I just want to see a cite. To me, it’s also a logical assumption that the committee in question could represent a microcosm of the whole legislature, since the committee was not going to pass the bill, neither would the whole body. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/17 "2006-02-03T20:36:25Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > I get that, I just want to see a cite. To me, it’s also a logical assumption that the committee in question could represent a microcosm of the whole legislature, since the committee was not going to pass the bill, neither would the whole body. Sure. Admittedly, the “assumption” that not all Democrats would vote against the measure, comes, in large part, from the Republicans themselves. From [FOX news](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183688,00.html): > [@](#): > > At the heart of the Republican effort was the assumption that if the full House was forced to cast a recorded vote on the measure, many more delegates of both parties would feel compelled to vote for it in an election year. This is merely an assumption, but it’s one that (unfortunately) seems reasonable, given the way this debate has developed in Maryland over the past months. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/18 "2006-02-03T20:37:31Z")
Crap. Could a passing mod fix my coding please? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/19 "2006-02-03T20:48:37Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Admittedly, the “assumption” that not all Democrats would vote against the measure, comes, in large part, from the Republicans themselves. Yeah, I was beginning to think it was something like that. Not aimed at any poster here, but it’s sad to me that the political party that immediately after its formation took a principled stand in favor of basic human rights and liberty for an oppressed people seems to have become the party of “my way or the highway” and “no, of course you’re not _equal_, you’re a freak”. The modern GOP doesn’t deserve to list Lincoln as their first President. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844/20 "2006-02-03T21:02:08Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > I do not appreciate it when either of our suck-ass political parties in the US engage in bullshit manipulations of completely unrelated procedures/powers to influence an issue they don’t want to have to deal with head on. Fair enough. I don’t appreciate legislators trying to amend the constitution to make specific unconstitutional laws constitutional - IMO, that’s the height of bullshit manipulations. Civil rights protections should never come down to a vote. **Elvis1Lives** , I trust you’ve seen [this](http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2005/05/30/tomo/index1.html)? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-lawmakers-in-maryland-you-suck/342844.md?page=2)