# Democratic Party BBQ **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412 "2006-10-30T05:24:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/41 "2006-10-31T02:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] I agree with Elucidator here. I can’t stand people whose essentially say, “Karl Rove is an evil genius who fools the American voters with fear and hatred. And we Democrats need a Karl Rove of our own.” It’s just stupid. First of all Karl Rove is an idiot. The president he manages has an approval rating so low they had to invent a whole new branch of mathematics just to express it, he lost the popular vote on his first election, he barely sqeaked by on his second election, and the republican party is imploding with finger–pointing and recriminations all around. Yeah, really successful model to emulate there. How’s that Evil Genius thing working out for you, Karl? [/QUOTE] Yep. I would say that George Bush, along with Karl Rove, have single handedly (double handedly?) destroyed the Republican party even if they propped it up for 6 short years. All of this over the Iraq war, which, along with the Vietnam War, were the 2 worst policy decisions by American administrations in my lifetime. Notice anything similar about those decsions, by the way? If the Democrats want to win for a few years and then be trashed, all they have to do is find a liberal evil genius like Rove and a divisive, wrong-headed presidential candidate like Bush. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/42 "2006-10-31T02:30:20Z")
Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo wrote [a post last week addressing the “Democrats don’t have ideas–they just criticize the Republicans” meme](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/010524.php). > [@](#): > > Let’s say this once and for all, after a deep breath and for the record: In US politics, in off-year elections with unpopular incumbents it is always that way. Always. Hear it again, always that way. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/43 "2006-10-31T02:36:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] All of this over the Iraq war, which, along with the Vietnam War, were the 2 worst policy decisions by American administrations in my lifetime. Notice anything similar about those decsions, by the way? [/QUOTE] Texans were responsible both times? ---
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/44 "2006-10-31T02:38:28Z")
That’s right. Putting down your average folk’ll get you nowhere. You’ve got to win them over. In the age of TV, it’s done emotionally. I certainly hate that fact, but that’s the way it is. You need to break it down into something simple that Joseph P. Blow will respond to. “You’re smart. You know what you want. Change. And we WILL change this nation”. That statement is ridiculous. It doesn’t really say anything. But it’s the type of emo-babble the Dems need. Placate the masses. And when I run for office in 10 years, I will deny I ever wrote that. I’ll blame the hate-mongers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/45 "2006-10-31T03:10:14Z")
What makes you think the public aren’t ready for a black president, anyway? I think most people would have been ready for Colin Powell, and I think Barack Obama is just as electable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/46 "2006-10-31T03:13:20Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Texans were responsible both times? [/QUOTE] Nice. 🙂 But it was actually Kennedy who got us into Vietnam. Or Eisenhower, depending on how you cut it. Johnson did, however, take it to a new level. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/47 "2006-10-31T03:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=crinz83] I don’t think the only Dem alternative is some boring, uncharismatic schlub. The choice is not a black man or a woman, or Mr. Cardboard. The winning Dem must be a vibrant, exciting dude. [/quote] You want vibrant and exciting? Obama is IT. But please tell me whom you had in mind. Does Evan Bayh make you break out in a cold sweat, or were you dreaming of Tom Vilsack or Joe Biden? Perhaps you meant Gore or Kerry redux? > [@](#): > > Jeez, sorry spacing sentences is so irritating to you. I’m an asshole because of it? A sense of humor wouldn’t do you any harm, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/48 "2006-10-31T03:24:42Z")
[QUOTE=crinz83] No contradiction with Clinton or Obama in my mind. They’re foolish choices at this point in time, because lots of Americans won’t go for it. They aren’t ready for it. [/QUOTE] This is the same contradiction. You’re saying the Democrats should lead, and here’s an easy place to lead… but they shouldn’t go there, they might not get elected! It doesn’t take any kind of leadership to take people where they’re already going. I’ll say this much: you definitely talk like a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/49 "2006-10-31T03:26:11Z")
Colin Powell did not hold the highest office in the nation. He, along with Condi Rice, has certainly helped pave the way. I believe this nation is ready for a black, or female vice-president, but not the top spot. I don’t _know_ that, I only believe it. The time will come, soon. Investing too much into it this time around is a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/50 "2006-10-31T03:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=crinz83] I believe this nation is ready for a black, or female vice-president, but not the top spot. I don’t _know_ that, I only believe it. The time will come, soon. Investing too much into it this time around is a mistake. [/QUOTE] So in other words, “let somebody else lead.” This is one of _my_ problems with today’s Democrats. I’m just not sure what they would fight for - there’s a time for political calculation, granted. But I recently interviewed a Congresswoman, and another reporter asked her about gay marriage. Her answer seemed to boil down to “I want the court system or the people to decide the issue so I don’t have to.” That’s very disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/51 "2006-10-31T03:40:52Z")
Marley, maybe I was too dry in my response, but I wasn’t offended in the least by the ‘asshole’ comment. I am intrigued by Obama. He does have that ‘X’ factor. He’s just too new. A junior Senator, not much of a track record yet (yeah, JFK, blah blah blah). And, he’s black (god, I hate writing that… I FUCKING HATE IT), but that is a real issue. Give it another few years, and he could do it. I just don’t think this is the time. But, I’m listening. My door is not closed. Convince me. You may actually change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/52 "2006-10-31T03:50:23Z")
[QUOTE=crinz83] I just don’t think this is the time. [/QUOTE] How do you suggest that we will know when the time is? There’s really only one way we’ll know, and that is for a black (or a woman) to be nominated and to win. Sure, it’ll be a risk. No guts, no glory. There are plenty of reasons I can think of why Clinton or Obama might not be a good presidential candidate. Race and gender are not amongst those reasons. ---
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/53 "2006-10-31T04:01:10Z")
Put 'em on the ticket as a veep. Look, the theoretical time for women, blacks, and hispanics to hold power in this nation is now. L.A. has Villaraigosa. Great progress. But realistically, the presidency is a different animal. I hope you guys realize that I am strongly for this progressive change. I just think it needs to be done in a way that will work. Oh, and I’ve got tough skin. Opposition welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/54 "2006-10-31T04:09:19Z")
There isn’t much in the way of logical argument, I think. Either you are convinced that Obama connects with voters, and thus could overcome the race issue, or you aren’t convinced. I voted for him in Illinois in 2004, and to some degree (although cloistered away on a college campus), I saw the way he excited people. I really think he could be President, and I really think this may be his moment. There are certainly knocks against him, inexperience being the big one. Up until about two weeks ago, I was saying he should wait, serve a few more terms and then run for Governor of Illinois. But even if he does that, there’s no guarantee that things will go well for him. This could be his moment, and maybe this is the time and place for him and the country. ---
**Author:** ![4JawChuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/f9ae1b/32.png) [@4JawChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4JawChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/55 "2006-10-31T04:27:05Z")
Well, OK, Marley… I’m not convinced. I think I’ve made that abundantly clear. I certainly haven’t given up on the potential of Obama, though. Down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/56 "2006-10-31T12:09:43Z")
> [@Saturday Night Live](#): > > Dennis Miller: More on this from SNL news correspondent, Chris Rock! > > Chris Rock: Thank you, Dennis. Now as you know, there’s been a lot of talk about a black vice president. And I just wanna tell the world that it’ll never happen. As long as you live you will never see a black vice president, you know why? Because some black guy would just kill the president. I’d do it. If Colin Powell was vice president, I’d kill the president and tell his mother about it. What would happen to me? What would they do? Put me in jail with a bunch of black guys that would treat me like a king for the rest of my life? I would be the biggest star in jail, alright, people would be coming up to me and I’d be signing autographs: “97-KY, here you go.” Guys would be going: "You’re the brother that shot Bush. And you told his mother about it huh? I hope my children turn out to be just like you, Man, you know I was getting ready to rape you until I realized who you were. And even if they had a death penalty, what would happen? I’d just be pardoned by the black president. So you see, Dennis, it would not be in George Bush’s best interests to place Colin Powell on the ticket. There will be a black President before there will be a black Vice President. You can bet the farm on that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/57 "2006-10-31T15:25:32Z")
The cry of “The voters are so stupid!” is not a campaign slogan uttered with the thought of gaining votes. It’s a cry of utter exasperation. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/58 "2006-10-31T15:42:44Z")
I was very discouraged to see that Al Gore and John Kerry were both contemplating a run for President in '08. ARGH! For the love of all that is holy, if you cannot beat George W. Bush head to head, you can’t beat anybody! Do your party a favor and stay home. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/59 "2006-10-31T15:59:50Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] I was very discouraged to see that Al Gore and John Kerry were both contemplating a run for President in '08. ARGH! For the love of all that is holy, if you cannot beat George W. Bush head to head, you can’t beat anybody! Do your party a favor and stay home. [/QUOTE] With Kerry, I agree. Bush was weak in '04. If you couldn’t win then, you are not the guy. Gore might be a different story. In '00, the public was a bit weary of the Clinton administration, and Bush was a bit of an unknown quantity who was extremely likeable. Even so, Gore won a majority of votes cast. Moreover, I don’t know if you’ve seen [An Inconvenient Truth](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0497116/), but the Al Gore in that film comes across as more relaxed, more energetic and less wooden than the Gore we saw in '00. I can see the new, improved Gore doing well on the campaign trail. I would feel good about Gore as a nominee. My other choices would be Obama or Edwards. Assuming no skeletons emerge from Obama’s closet, any of those three would have me feeling pretty good about Democratic chances. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412/60 "2006-10-31T16:36:06Z")
One of the interesting things in considering possible Democratic nominees in 08 is that no clear Republican counterpart has emerged. Bush can’t run and Cheney says he doesn’t want it, so it’ll be a wide open field. There are a lot of people who want to be considered the heir apparent but none of them has separated himself from the crowd. Personally, I think a Gore-Obama ticket would be pretty damn strong, but you can’t do the political calculus in a vacuum; it really depends on the competition. Right now, that’s a giant unknown, so this kind of predictive theorizing strikes me, frankly, as pretty empty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democratic-party-bbq/378412.md?page=4)