# Democrats: Abstain!!!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 4, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062 "2004-11-04T22:13:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/1 "2004-11-04T22:13:21Z")
Like many Democrats yesterday, I woke up stunned at the election results and have been reading various suggestions for how the democrats can attract the voters back into the fold. Our noise machine has fallen on deaf ears, or has been out shouted by the Republican noise machine. So what to do, split off the blue states, change positions? I say no, I have a much better and easily instituted idea.
I say the Democrats in congress should abstain form the process for the next two years, let the Republicans have their way. Don’t vote against them; in fact don’t vote at all, with the caveat that any constitutional amendments are voted down. After all any other legislation can be changed later. My thinking on this is that there are plenty of voters who don’t take the time to make an informed choice and who vote against there own interest. Or whose vote is for one particular issue, and the rest of the platform is ignored. Giving the opposition free reign would make their agenda clear and stark. What say you folks?
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### Author:  [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/2 "2004-11-04T22:17:07Z")
**Stuffy** wrote
> [@](#):
>
> Our noise machine has fallen on deaf ears, or has been out shouted by the Republican noise machine.
There’s your mistake, and most other liberals, at least on this board, it seems. Your implication is that you’re right, and that “if only others could understand our superior wisdom, surely they’d vote our way.”
The problem is, it isn’t just who makes the loudest noise that gets elected. It’s who makes the most sense.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/3 "2004-11-04T22:19:46Z")
> [@Stuffy](#):
>
> I say the Democrats in congress should abstain form the process for the next two years, let the Republicans have their way. Don’t vote against them; in fact don’t vote at all, with the caveat that any constitutional amendments are voted down. After all any other legislation can be changed later. My thinking on this is that there are plenty of voters who don’t take the time to make an informed choice and who vote against there own interest. Or whose vote is for one particular issue, and the rest of the platform is ignored. Giving the opposition free reign would make their agenda clear and stark. What say you folks?
I wish they both would do that. I wish they’d go home and get real jobs. We have enough fucking laws. Their last act should be to repeal them all.
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### Author:  [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/4 "2004-11-04T22:20:40Z")
I disagree, I’ve talked to too many republicans who’ve said exactly what teh latest spin was regardng why they couldn’t vote for Kerry (from flipflopper to the Swift Boat stuff). Here in California, where we weren’t getting the deluge of ads that most of the swing states were getting.
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### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/5 "2004-11-04T22:27:11Z")
> [@Bill H.](#):
>
> There’s your mistake, and most other liberals, at least on this board, it seems. Your implication is that you’re right, and that “if only others could understand our superior wisdom, surely they’d vote our way.”
There’s an element of truth to what you say; the Democrats do seem to rely on people to just automatically see the sense in their position. Even if they haven’t told anyone what exactly it is.
> [@](#):
>
> The problem is, it isn’t just who makes the loudest noise that gets elected. It’s who makes the most sense.
This, OTOH, is ridiculously naive. Very few of the political messages made sense. “The terrorists are wolves that will eat your children unless you vote for Bush!” “John Kerry is an eagle! George Bush is an ostrich!” Yeah, that all makes sense.
More often it’s whoever panders most to voters’ baser instincts that wins. Sad but true.
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### Author:  [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/6 "2004-11-04T22:27:48Z")
I could have sworn I used the quote feature, my last was directed at **Bill H**
Further to that, I’m not talking a matter of who’s right or wrong. I’m talking about the difference between the different legislative agendas.
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### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/7 "2004-11-04T22:32:27Z")
Absolutely NOT!!! Fight, fight hard for what we believe in. The administration and congress will no doubt attempt to do many things that are wrong. Attempt to defeat these at best, temper them at least, and always, always make it clear why we disagree. Support them when it’s called for, and always, always make it clear why we agree. There should always be a clear message: these are our beliefs, this is why we believe our beliefs, and we will fight for our beliefs.
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### Author:  [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/8 "2004-11-04T23:54:21Z")
> [@Stuffy](#):
>
> Like many Democrats yesterday, I woke up stunned at the election results and have been reading various suggestions for how the democrats can attract the voters back into the fold. Our noise machine has fallen on deaf ears, or has been out shouted by the Republican noise machine. So what to do, split off the blue states, change positions? I say no, I have a much better and easily instituted idea.
>
> I say the Democrats in congress should abstain form the process for the next two years, let the Republicans have their way. Don’t vote against them; in fact don’t vote at all, with the caveat that any constitutional amendments are voted down. After all any other legislation can be changed later. My thinking on this is that there are plenty of voters who don’t take the time to make an informed choice and who vote against there own interest. Or whose vote is for one particular issue, and the rest of the platform is ignored. Giving the opposition free reign would make their agenda clear and stark. What say you folks?
So this is what it sounds like when you take the 6 year old’s tantrum “I’ll take my ball and go home if you don’t let me be quarterback” and adjust it by about 30 years. Awesome.
---
### Author:  [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/9 "2004-11-05T00:02:50Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#):
>
> Absolutely NOT!!! Fight, fight hard for what we believe in. The administration and congress will no doubt attempt to do many things that are wrong. Attempt to defeat these at best, temper them at least, and always, always make it clear why we disagree.
But this is apparently what at least half the electorate seems to want, or at least the half of thise who bothered to vote. I say we give it to them. In 2-4 years they’ll get what they want and then we’ll get to look around and declare this is good, or a huge collective WTF moment. I’m obviously hoping for the latter, but the former would convince me that the country is much more conservative than I’d like and plan accordingly.
> [@](#):
>
> There should always be a clear message: these are our beliefs, this is why we believe our beliefs, and we will fight for our beliefs.
Then in 2005-2006, we give them our message, the difference should be quite obvious then no?
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### Author:  [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/10 "2004-11-05T00:11:58Z")
> [@Mullinator](#):
>
> So this is what it sounds like when you take the 6 year old’s tantrum “I’ll take my ball and go home if you don’t let me be quarterback” and adjust it by about 30 years. Awesome.
No, not at all, I’m suggesting an experiment. Of those who voted Tuesday a clear preference for the Repuublican agenda was realized, remember they control all three branches now. Of those who didn’t vote, a lot was due to apathy of whether there was is a difference between the parties. With the exception of being completely obstructionist, we’re not really in a position to do much but temper legislation anyway, so I say let the experiment run it’s course.
I forgot **Lib** we all know what _you_ think. 😉
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### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/11 "2004-11-05T00:16:59Z")
> [@Stuffy](#):
>
> Then in 2005-2006, we give them our message, the difference should be quite obvious then no?
Well, yes. The number one complaint I heard from reasonable people who voted for Bush was that they didn’t know what Kerry stood for. Make the Democratic message a constant background feature to daily life. Then it’s easier to reinforce the message come the next election.
The most important part is to make it obvious what we stand for and why. A constant, clear message. I believe the American people are fundamentally a decent people, an honest, caring, and ethical people. We need to show why our positions reflect those basic American values. We won’t do that by sitting on our hands for two years, as a matter of fact, that will only show we don’t give a shit.
Also, I don’t believe that we are all _that_ conservative. 65,000 votes the other way in Ohio, and Bruce Springsteen would be writing a song for the inaugural.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/12 "2004-11-05T03:56:08Z")
As long as they vigorously oppose constitutional amendments and supreme court appointments (whose effects will last us a very long time), I think that’s a good idea.
America voted for the turd sandwich. Now we should let them have a huge bite. 😃
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/13 "2004-11-05T04:48:10Z")
I do think that our best hope is for the Republicans to actually try to put their agenda into play, so that the American people can see the actual consequences of a solid Republican government in the modern age. At the same time, I think the Democrats should keep their eyes wide open and monitor every last thing every single branch of the government does in the next four years. No gentlemen’s agreements, no secret handshakes, no back-scratching…if the Republicans so much as go to the can, the Democrats should make sure they have a shadow who’s willing to talk to the press.
We need to make this the most transparent government in history for at LEAST the next four years. No hiding behind a veil of stultifying equivocation, no half-truth rhetoric. We don’t let them blame it on us when they can’t or won’t get one of their ill-advised promises to the Religious Right done. We merely point out that they have a solid majority…why can’t they get their agenda across?
We have to be the loyal OPPOSITION for the next four years. No blood, but no mercy. The Democrats in Congress have to be the biggest bunch of hard-asses to their colleagues that any loyal opposition has ever been.
It’s the only way to keep 'em honest.
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/14 "2004-11-05T05:20:59Z")
> [@Bill H.](#):
>
> The problem is, it isn’t just who makes the loudest noise that gets elected. It’s who makes the most sense.
Ooh, look! An _argumentum ad populum!_ How cute.
People from both camps seem to agree that “values” decided this election, and that the values that turned out to have the most popular support were largely religious values.
What you have going on down there is contention between two flavours of value systems – humanist, secular values vs religious values. The political pendulum has swung back from the Enlightenment/Age of Reason values of Jefferson and the rest of those scruffy libertines, to the dogmatic values of religious belief.
The irony is that the American idea was such a good one that it’s been enthusiastically adopted by the rest of the western world, who looked on in bewilderment during this campaign as both candidates did their best to out-god each other. There’s no way a liberal platform can succeed on those terms.
You don’t present your positions an article of faith, (which both parties did,) you reason them out. Unreason carried the day.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/15 "2004-11-05T07:18:21Z")
It’s worth reminding folks that the Kerry-Edwards ticket appealed more to moderates than the Bush-Cheney one did. [According to CNN:](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html)
```auto
VOTE BY IDEOLOGY
BUSH KERRY
Liberal (21%) 13% 85%
Moderate (45%) 45% 54%
Conservative (34%) 84% 15%
```
The Democrats weren’t out of touch; they were simply outshouted by the right-wing anti-gay zealots.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/16 "2004-11-05T10:51:21Z")
And the leftist cluelessness continues unabated. You’re going to be like the fart whose stink lingers in the nostrils long after the air is cleared. When you believe that you are the majority _even while quoting statistics that prove you are not_, then the one out of touch one is you.
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/17 "2004-11-05T12:04:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> And the leftist cluelessness continues unabated. You’re going to be like the fart whose stink lingers in the nostrils long after the air is cleared. When you believe that you are the majority _even while quoting statistics that prove you are not_, then the one out of touch one is you.
You going into one of your batshit crazy phases again? You have _nothing_ to offer in any kind of rational discussion of politics. **december** was more rational than you are.
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### Author:  [@ShockingAlberto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShockingAlberto)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/18 "2004-11-05T12:15:52Z")
These next two to four years of battles won’t be fought in Congress. If we stand up to the Republican majority now and get shut down, it’s only going to be more embarassing in the end. Consider this board like a microcosm of America right now. Whenever someone brings up a passionate (though, in the spirit of friendship, I will say often venemous and somewhat ignorant) OP, the Republicans on the boards will say something along the lines of “Yeah, that’s why we beat you so badly,” or “That’s the ivory-tower liberals won’t ever hold major power again.” I find it quite insulting, but I know the liberals here have given back just as much in the last few years. Hopefully things will calm down in to civil discourse soon.
In any case, if the Democrats oppose something vehemently and the Republicans manage to get the support of the American people behind them (which wouldn’t be surprising, considering Bush support is far greater than I had imagined), then the Dems are in a lose-lose situation. We can drop it and look weak or be defeated and look weak.
The next few years will have to be played to the tune of a PR song. I’m not going to say “People just don’t see why we make sense,” I’m going to say “This is why I think we’re better for America.” It’s not enough to just not be Republicans anymore, the moderates have shifted right. Hell, I think our whole country has shifted slightly right, judging by our candidates. Our job for now is to convince the country through positive passion (not the normal “God, Bush sucks,” rhetoric we’ve been using for a while now) why we think we’d be better for America. It’s an uphill battle, I don’t deny that, but it’s a battle we have to fight and fight intelligently if we intend to stay alive as a party. I’m sick of being Republican-lite. We should not change our core values to satisfy the American people, but we should instead try and make the American people see why our core values are a viable alternative.
I hope that made sense.
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/19 "2004-11-05T12:30:16Z")
> [@ShockingAlberto](#):
>
> I’m sick of being Republican-lite. We should not change our core values to satisfy the American people, but we should instead try and make the American people see why our core values are a viable alternative.
>
> I hope that made sense.
No, it doesn’t make sense. Your core values are basically Christian values. Love thy neighbour.
Republicans are _pretend_ Christians. They don’t follow Christ at all. Their God is the vengeful OT God. Fuck em. That ain’t Christianity at all.
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-abstain/273062/20 "2004-11-05T12:53:00Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#):
>
> Their God is the vengeful OT God. Fuck em. That ain’t Christianity at all.
Actually, now that I’ve thought about it a bit, it’s worse than that. They don’t even follow the ten commandments.
You know, the “Thou shalt not kill”, and the “Thou shalt not bear false witness”.
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