# Democrats accused of trying to steal senate election in Pennsylvania **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 19, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467 "2024-11-19T17:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/22 "2024-11-19T19:23:42Z")
These are not what anyone else would consider to be “illegal” ballots. The voters simply messed up when they put the date on by their signature- leaving the date off, transposing numbers, whatever. Mistaken ballots. > **[Pennsylvania's high court sides with Republicans on misdated mail ballots](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/18/nx-s1-5195524/pennsylvania-election-ballots-senate-recount)** > > The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has directed county officials not to count mail ballots for the general election that arrived on time but in envelopes missing the correct date handwritten by voters. _“It is a pretty stupid thing to not count someone’s vote simply because they didn’t date an envelope for a ballot,” Bob Harvie Jr., chair of Buck County’s elections board and a Democrat, [said last week at a meeting](https://www.facebook.com/100068531182198/videos/1211884646565580) before officials voted 2-1 to tally 405 ballots that did not meet the state’s handwritten-date requirement. “The law needs to be changed.”_ Note that the last time this occurred the Republicans argued those SHOULD be counted, as they were losing. The few extra votes that could be counted will not change the results- the OP is wrong. (well, I guess you can say the the GOP _is_ “:accusing” the Dems, but they always are , and for bogus reasons- like this one). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/23 "2024-11-19T19:25:14Z")
I have, for at least a quarter century, advocated treating ballots with maximum grace. If we can tell the voter’s intent, let’s work according to that intent; and if we can’t, let’s figure out how to cure it. My position, and the position of most leftists I know, is consistent on this point: an expansive reading of the law that allows more ballots to be counted is superior to a strict reading of the law that rejects ballots whose intent and legitimacy is clear. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/24 "2024-11-19T19:30:49Z")
Exactly. Mind you if the GOP is insistent on a strict leading of the law- that is one thing, but they are arguing whichever side is better for them, being immoral hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/25 "2024-11-19T19:37:00Z")
So, this boils down to; **Republicans** : You’re trying to steal this election! **Democrats** : We just want to count the votes the same way you wanted them counted last time. **Republicans** : Exactly, you’re trying to steal this election! Bricker would be so proud of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/26 "2024-11-19T19:48:06Z")
**Moderating:** This is attacking the poster and not the post. Do not do this. Do not talk about ignoring posters outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/27 "2024-11-19T19:59:04Z")
Good overview of the situation in the Philadelphia Inquirer: [Bob Casey isn’t conceding the U.S. Senate race. But it’s not like Donald Trump in 2020.](https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/casey-mccormick-recount-us-senate-race-election-denial-20241116.html) > [@](#): > > In past elections, when Casey won his races handily, Casey’s campaign and [Democrats](https://www.inquirer.com/topic/democratic-party) broadly had appeared before local boards of election across Pennsylvania, fighting for provisional ballots — which voters cast when the county board of elections [needs to determine whether someone is eligible](https://www.pa.gov/en/agencies/vote/voter-support/provisional-ballot.html) to vote — to be counted. The process is standard in every election. But it has earned extra attention as the Senate race remains close. > > While Casey’s campaign is fighting to have as many ballots counted as possible, it is up to local boards of election and courts to decide which ballots to include. Democrats’ arguments have focused on base questions of whether the law does or does not bar a ballot from being counted. > … > Still, the Republican pressure campaign for Casey to concede is mounting. On Friday, both Republican National Committee chairman Michael Whatley and U.S. Sen. Tom Cotton (R., Ark.) posted unfounded claims to X that decisions by Pennsylvania’s local boards of elections to count undated ballots were part of an effort by Democrats to steal the election from McCormick. > > There is no evidence that is true. When people have an explicit history of wanting to count all votes, assume that’s what they’re doing. When people have an explicit history of lying about “stolen” elections, assume that’s what they’re doing, too. There’s no reason to give Republicans–including the New York Post–any credence whatsoever on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/28 "2024-11-19T20:29:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > an expansive reading of the law that allows more ballots to be counted is superior to a strict reading of the law that rejects ballots whose intent and legitimacy is clear. that’s fine and reasonable as a _policy_ statement, but voting officials tasked with counting ballots are not imbued with the discretion to determine whether a ballot does or does not meet their personal standard. They need to follow established laws as to what is and is not a valid ballot and they have clearly, unequivocally, not done so in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/29 "2024-11-19T20:37:03Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > that’s fine and reasonable as a _policy_ statement, but voting officials tasked with counting ballots are not imbued with the discretion to determine whether a ballot does or does not meet their personal standard. They need to follow established laws as to what is and is not a valid ballot and they have clearly, unequivocally, not done so in this instance. They have not done so in a hope that the current interpretation will be changed by a future lawsuit. There is an argument that the law that prevents such votes from being counted is itself unconstitutional, and they haven’t conceded the case. They’re preserving the record. Claims that they’re trying to steal the election are cynical lies by the same people who made those claims in 2020. If they’re committing a crime, let them be charged with the specific crime they’re committing. But they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/30 "2024-11-19T20:51:05Z")
Governor Shapiro is asking the officials to comply with the courts. > **[PA governor puts local officials on notice after court ruling on undated ballots](https://kmph.com/news/nation-world/pa-governor-puts-local-officials-on-notice-after-court-ruling-on-undated-ballots-philadelphiabucks-montgomery-pennsylvania-josh-shapiro-commissioner-diane-m-ellis-marseglia-casey-mccormick-senate-recount)** > > The Pennsylvania Supreme Court reaffirmed its ruling Monday that undated ballots should not be counted. I will note that I have searched for any suggestion that what the officials are doing is actually _criminal_, and have not found anything other than the Trump campaign and the RNC demanding that they “go to jail”. But nobody with any actual authority has suggested that they could be charged with a crime as of yet, to the best of my knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/31 "2024-11-19T21:30:42Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > basically, no one gives a shit about Bob Casey > > what? this is a US senate seat! There are exactly 100 of them in the entire country and they enact the laws of the United States. Yes, it’s not president … Did you actually read the entirety of my post? It’s not that a Senate seat doesn’t have importance, it’s that the whole Bob Casey kerfuffle has absolutely no comparison with the vast litany of **criminal** things that Trump did to try to overturn the 2020 **presidential** election, and that bringing up Casey in the same context, with the implication that “Democrats do it, too” is a grossly irresponsible and inappropriate attempt to manufacture false equivalency. The only reason Trump isn’t in jail right now is that, apparently having been born with a horseshoe up his ass, he got lucky breaks from a Supreme Court that he himself helped to populate with far-right extremists, another lucky break that delayed the Georgia trial and may scuttle it entirely, and then somehow managed to get elected president again by a bunch of ignorant pinheads. The reason that Casey isn’t in jail or charged with anything is because he isn’t doing anything illegal. I don’t know how to put it any more clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/32 "2024-11-19T21:59:23Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > In response to these rulings, Bucks County Commissioner Diane Ellis-Marseglia stated “I think we all know that precedent by a court doesn’t matter anymore in this country.” That’s certainly what you want to hear from a public official! You’re right, I would much rather live in a country where precedent by a court did still matter. Unfortunately, that’s not the country we live in. Given that fact, I would, in fact, prefer my public officials to recognize the actual reality. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/33 "2024-11-19T22:15:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > whole Bob Casey kerfuffle has absolutely no comparison with the vast litany of **criminal** things that Trump did to try to overturn the 2020 **presidential** election, and that bringing up Casey in the same context, with the implication that “Democrats do it, too” is a grossly irresponsible and inappropriate attempt to manufacture false equivalency. and deflecting from the issue at hand by bringing up this whataboutism in the context of Republican malfeasance is grossly irresponsible and inappropriate too. Regardless of whether it was done “for the right reasons”, disregarding established law and court orders by election officials can only further undermine society’s belief that election results are counted by some objective standard, rather than the whim of some political official hack. It was the wrong decision and it needs to be called out. Is that law stupid and unnecessarily rigid? Maybe, probably! But it is not for an election official or some county commissioner to try to unilaterally make that decision, and only harm can come from them doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/34 "2024-11-19T22:22:34Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > Regardless of whether it was done “for the right reasons”, disregarding established law and court orders by election officials can only further undermine society’s belief that election results are counted by some objective standard, rather than the whim of some political official hack. Except that, thanks to the Pennsylvania courts, that’s exactly what is happening. If Republicans only won the seat by disqualifying ballots on bullshit technicalities, then the people deserve to know that, and the only way to know that is to count those ballots. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/35 "2024-11-19T22:54:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If Republicans only won the seat by disqualifying ballots on bullshit technicalities, then the people deserve to know that, and the only way to know that is to count those ballots. it’s garden variety political hackery bullshit masquerading as some sort of noble “will of the people” civil disobedience. It’s wrong, regardless of which party is doing it and its ok to call it out. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/36 "2024-11-19T23:00:29Z")
Right. And someone should scold that child for pointing out the emperor has no clothes on. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/37 "2024-11-19T23:56:01Z")
Bob Casey wrote an op ed that has been (hopefully accurately) summarized by a redditor [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Pennsylvania/comments/1gugz77/we_must_value_democracy_more_than_expediency_us/lxtvrz4/) It has this kind of eye popping claim: > Still, other voters across the Commonwealth went out to vote and did everything right, but because of small mistakes and understandable human error – on the part of the voter or due to election officials – their votes have to move through a lengthier process. > > While this process has been lengthy and will still take time, I have remained committed to one clear goal: Letting the voices of Pennsylvanians be heard and standing up against efforts to silence and disenfranchise voters in the Commonwealth. > > This principle stands in stark opposition to Washington Republicans, who have interrupted this process and filed numerous lawsuits to disenfranchise thousands of voters. Attorneys representing my opponent in this race and national Republicans have argued to disqualify ballots where the voter did everything right, but an election official forgot to counter-sign the ballot envelope. So if this is correct, Republicans are even trying to disqualify ballots where the only mistake was on the part of the _election workers_. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467/38 "2024-11-20T01:17:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If Republicans only won the seat by disqualifying ballots on bullshit technicalities, then the people deserve to know that, and the only way to know that is to count those ballots. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court is 5-2 Democratic (our court elections are partisan) and they all seem to agree on the case outcome even though there are multiple concurring decisions. I think the hand dating requirement makes no sense, but it is our law. I also see no strong reason to think it favors one party, although others obviously disagree. Looking at the news stories, I see missing details. I could swear reading, in news stories regarding past Pa. election disputes, that so long as the ballot was dated, they didn’t care what date you put there. But this time, if you seem to have reversed the month and day fields, your ballot is bad. (My wife and I were very careful with our ballots, knowing this kind of dispute can happen.) Here is a fact: Checking every ballot date for plausibility has to be time consuming due to there being multiple possible error types. Many of the dates are surely a hard to read scrawl. Reading bad handwriting, even if just digits, takes skill. If it looks like the envelope was dated a few days before the ballot was received in the mail, or today, what happens? Do they look at the possibly blurred postmark date, if there is one? Does a second county employee check to see if they agree what date the voter wrote down? I find it hard to believe that every county election employee interpreted the law here exactly the same way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-accused-of-trying-to-steal-senate-election-in-pennsylvania/1010467.md?page=1)