# Democrats also facing internal faction fight this year? **URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301 **Category:** Great Debates **Created:** [March 4, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301 "2010-03-04T17:37:10Z") **Posts on this page:** 20 **Page:** 1
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/1 "2010-03-04T17:37:10Z")
I’m sure you’re all aware of how the GOP’s hard-right and moderate wings have been struggling for control of the party over the past year, as reflected in the [Frum-Limbaugh flap,](http://www.newsweek.com/id/188279/page/1) and in insurgent primary bids by conservatives such as [Doug Hoffman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hoffman) against moderates. Are the Dems looking at something similar? From [_The Nation:_](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/535715/like_crist_rubio_for_gop_lincoln_halter_race_could_define_dems) > [@](#): > > Most major media in the United States has given up on covering politics as if it mattered. From talk radio to talk television to the Washington bureaus of too many of our dying newspapers, the coverage of the 2010 election cycle is framed in one of two ways: > > A. A fight between conservative Republicans and liberal Democrats. > > B. A fight between conservative Republicans and Tea Party Republicans to decide who will get to vanquish the liberal Democrats in November. > > What’s missing from this calculus is the reality that this is an exceptionally volatile moment economically, socially and politically in the United States – a moment so volatile that both major parties are experiencing unprecedented turbulence within their ranks. > > The first partisan primaries, last month in Illinois and this week in Texas, have seen intense multi-candidate contests for key nominations on both sides of the ballot. Incumbents are facing fights within their own parties, open seats are attracting contenders from all wings of the two major parties, and independent and third party contenders are waiting in the wings. > > \ > > In fact, Democrats will have as many serious primary contests for House and Senate seats this year as Republicans, and perhaps more. In California, for instance, progressive leader Marcy Winograd has mounted such a serious challenge to conservative Democratic Congresswoman Jane Harman that Winograd is now being attacked by party leaders who are unsettled by the prospect that her anti-war, anti-Wall Street, pro-civil liberties candidacy might upset the incumbent. > > Similarly intense contests have developed for Senate seats in Pennsylvania and Colorado, with incumbents Arlen Specter and Michael Bennet both facing tough challenges from credible challengers. (The Pennsylvania race between Specter and Congressman Joe Sestak is less of a left-right battle, especially since Sestak has tacked well to the right on foreign policy; but the Colorado contest offers a clear choice between a corporation-friendly centrist incumbent who polls very badly and a populist challenger, former state House Speaker Andrew Romanoff, who polls far better against Republican prospects.) > > Now, however, what could be the most interesting and important primary fight on the Democratic side has developed in Arkansas. > > Senator Blanche Lincoln, the exceptionally uninspired (and uninspiring) Arkansas Democrat who has dragged her heals on health-care reform, labor-law reform and just about every other major issue that matters to grassroots Democrats while at the same time backing bank bailouts and trade policies that batter Arkansas workers and farmers, will face a serious primary challenge from the state’s lieutenant governor. > > Bill Halter, who was elected to Arkansas’ No. 2 job with 57 percent of the vote in 2006, has positioned himself as a far more progressive player on education, health care and, above all, economic issues than Senator Lincoln. > > \ > > “Washington is broken – bailing out Wall Street with no strings attached while leaving middle-class Arkansas taxpayers with the bill; protecting insurance company profits instead of protecting patients and lowering health costs; gridlock, bickering and partisan games while unemployment is at a 25 year high,” says Halter. “Enough’s enough…” > > That’s an old-fashioned populist appeal, as old-fashioned as Halter’s bashing of “Republican and Wall Street schemes to privatize (Social Security).” Here’s an interesting question for debate: Suppose **all** such insurgencies on both sides were to succeed, and both parties’ moderates, centrists, RINOs, DINOs, Blue Dogs, etc., were knocked out of their bids for election/re-election, and all Congressional elections in 2010 were to pit hard-right-populist Pubs against left-progressive-populist Dems. Which side would come out ahead? ---
### Author: ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/2 "2010-03-04T17:45:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which side would come out ahead? [ul] [li]Airlines selling one-way plane tickets[/li][li]L.L. Bean and other purveyors of camping and survival gear[/li][li]Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter[/li][/ul] ---
### Author: ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/3 "2010-03-04T18:09:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which side would come out ahead? Depends on the final makeup of Congress after the dust settles. Personally I see Tea Baggers as just a worse version of the Republicans we’ve already had. Reps thoroughly wrecked the country and Tea baggers apparently feel they did not go far enough. Dems, while considered the “left”, have only really been a bit left of Reps. Particularly the Blue Dogs but most seem sufficiently in the pocket of some business interest or other as to hardly deserve the moniker of “being on the left”. That leaves progressives. We thought we were getting a progressive President and with him a progressive Congress but we got anything but that (see my last paragraph). So, I sincerely hope the likes of Blanche Lincoln get tossed out. Lincoln ran as a democrat and the democrats who voted her in got something else. False advertising I say. Given the extremes of the Reps this last year I think the Congress needs a more serious attempt from the left to dive its agenda. Democrats have been pussies long enough. A bit more fire in their bellies is needed and I think that would come from the progressives. Also, I would not paint progressives as fringey as tea baggers. Tea baggers are on about all sorts of weird, unsupportable notions (e.g. death panels) that bear no resemblance to reality. Progressives are nowhere near as off their rocker. Should be interesting…and scary. ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/4 "2010-03-04T19:07:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Given the extremes of the Reps this last year I think the Congress needs a more serious attempt from the left to dive its agenda. Democrats have been pussies long enough. A bit more fire in their bellies is needed and I think that would come from the progressives. Yes, yes, but how would that play out **electorally?** Is it even possible to **get** a progressive-majority Congress? Even based on [the most progressive-friendly analysis,](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) that POV, while heretofore underestimated by pollsters and pundits, does not represent anywhere near a majority. Neither does the Teabag-right, of course. But if those were the only choices offered on the ballot, which way would most districts go? ---
### Author: ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/5 "2010-03-04T19:13:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes, but how would that play out **electorally?** Is it even possible to **get** a progressive-majority Congress? Even based on [the most progressive-friendly analysis,](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) that POV, while heretofore underestimated by pollsters and pundits, does not represent anywhere near a majority. Neither does the Teabag-right, of course. But if those were the only choices offered on the ballot, which way would most districts go? I agree progressives have little chance (and that is being charitable) to get meaningful control of Congress. If those were the only choices on the ballot I think Tea Baggers would win over progressives. Tea Baggers is a knee jerk response, don’t trouble yourself with facts group. Progressivism (that a word?) is a lot more hard work to sort the good ideas from the bad. America proves itself to be lazy when it comes to voting over and over again. I say they opt for the easy choice with spiffy slogans. ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/6 "2010-03-04T19:41:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Progressivism (that a word?) . . . Yes, [but of problematic definition.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=496350) ---
### Author: ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/7 "2010-03-04T19:48:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Depends on the final makeup of Congress after the dust settles. > > Personally I see Tea Baggers as just a worse version of the Republicans we’ve already had. Totally agree > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That leaves progressives. We thought we were getting a progressive President and with him a progressive Congress but we got anything but that (see my last paragraph). Are you serious? Given Obama’s senate record, you thought he was a progressive and not a tax-and-spend liberal? Were you shock when the paragon of family values Bill Clinton (known as Slick Willie BEFORE you elected him) banged an intern? On behalf of all Democrats, you may now beg my forgiveness for calling me a stupid Republican when I said President Obama would rule like this back on October 2008 and y’all denied it. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Given the extremes of the Reps this last year I think the Congress needs a more serious attempt from the left to dive its agenda. Democrats have been pussies long enough. A bit more fire in their bellies is needed and I think that would come from the progressives. > > Also, I would not paint progressives as fringey as tea baggers. Tea baggers are on about all sorts of weird, unsupportable notions (e.g. death panels) that bear no resemblance to reality. Progressives are nowhere near as off their rocker. > > Should be interesting…and scary. Do you think an honest-to-goodness centrist (social programs balanced with fiscal responsibilty) National Progressive Party would help? I’m tired of being told that I am not a true Republican _by my own party_ because I’m pro-choice. But what are my options? I would love to get a grassroots campaign started for a true Progressive (Bull-Moose Party) ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/8 "2010-03-04T19:54:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you think an honest-to-goodness centrist (social programs balanced with fiscal responsibilty) National Progressive Party would help? I’m tired of being told that I am not a true Republican _by my own party_ because I’m pro-choice. But what are my options? I would love to get a grassroots campaign started for a true Progressive (Bull-Moose Party) Let’s try to keep our terminology up to date – you are using “progressive” in [a now-archaic sense.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_era) Nowadays it (mostly) means something very different – something well to the right of “socialist” and well to the left of “liberal.” See thread linked in post #6. ---
### Author: ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/9 "2010-03-04T19:58:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you think an honest-to-goodness centrist (social programs balanced with fiscal responsibilty) National Progressive Party would help? I’m tired of being told that I am not a true Republican _by my own party_ because I’m pro-choice. But what are my options? I would love to get a grassroots campaign started for a true Progressive (Bull-Moose Party) Sounds great on paper to me (broadly speaking since the devil is in the details). I think the problem here is Republicans pull to the right (naturally) so if your starting point is the center, and the right refuses compromise, the legislation gets pulled from center to right. Hell, in this last Congress when Dems tried to meet a Rep demand the Reps would move the goalposts even further right. If we were haggling over price and I am willing to pay $10 I do not start by offering $10 (see [Monty Python](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm7K4VM_7Rg) for a lesson on this :D). I’m afraid the nature of the game demands it. Wish it were otherwise. ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/10 "2010-03-04T20:11:20Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you think an honest-to-goodness centrist (social programs balanced with fiscal responsibilty) National Progressive Party would help? How does that work? Social programs are expensive, after all. ---
### Author: ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/11 "2010-03-04T20:30:17Z")
If the parties booted all their moderates, it would kill the parties. You’d get a massive influx of third party candidates. ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/12 "2010-03-04T20:33:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If the parties booted all their moderates, it would kill the parties. You’d get a massive influx of third party candidates. Why? Wouldn’t the third parties’ potential voters – and candidates – simply go with either the Democratic or Republican Party as newly radically reconstituted? ---
### Author: ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/13 "2010-03-04T21:52:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? Wouldn’t the third parties’ potential voters – and candidates – simply go with either the Democratic or Republican Party as newly radically reconstituted? No, because a lot of people have moderate views and wouldn’t want to be part of either the new far right Republicans or far left Democrats. ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/14 "2010-03-04T22:26:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, because a lot of people have moderate views and wouldn’t want to be part of either the new far right Republicans or far left Democrats. Perhaps, but [here](http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm) is a (AFAIK) complete list, with brief descriptions and links, of all third parties now in existence in the U.S. Which of them stands for the centrists? And I don’t think there would be time to organize a new one before November. ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/15 "2010-03-04T22:37:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps, but [here](http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm) is a (AFAIK) complete list, with brief descriptions and links, of all third parties now in existence in the U.S. Which of them stands for the centrists? And I don’t think there would be time to organize a new one before November. One of them at least nominally does – the Modern Whig Party – but . . . no. I just can’t see that catching on this year, no matter what happens with or to the major parties. ---
### Author: ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing) #### Post date: [March 4, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/16 "2010-03-04T22:47:49Z")
Connecticut for Lieberman wasn’t an official third party until Lieberman lost the Democratic nomination either. And if both the two major parties get stuck at the extremes, new parties in between will develop. ---
### Author: ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea) #### Post date: [March 5, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/17 "2010-03-05T00:17:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps, but [here](http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm) is a (AFAIK) complete list, with brief descriptions and links, of all third parties now in existence in the U.S. Which of them stands for the centrists? And I don’t think there would be time to organize a new one before November. The Independence Party, I think. ---
### Author: ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat) #### Post date: [March 5, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/18 "2010-03-05T02:40:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps, but [here](http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm) is a (AFAIK) complete list, with brief descriptions and links, of all third parties now in existence in the U.S. Which of them stands for the centrists? And I don’t think there would be time to organize a new one before November. I imagine that the disenfranchised people would form up new parties. The vote’s not going to go to the extremists. They simply aren’t representative (by definition of extremism). ---
### Author: ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton) #### Post date: [March 5, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/19 "2010-03-05T03:42:34Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I imagine that the disenfranchised people would form up new parties. The vote’s not going to go to the extremists. They simply aren’t representative (by definition of extremism). True; but history shows us that if extremists, while not forming a majority, do form something close to a plurality, and are **really, really determined,** sometimes they can win against less zealous moderates, even in a democratic setting. There are many instances, right and left. ---
### Author: ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat) #### Post date: [March 5, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301/20 "2010-03-05T03:56:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > True; but history shows us that if extremists, while not forming a majority, do form something close to a plurality, and are **really, really determined,** sometimes they can win against less zealous moderates, even in a democratic setting. There are many instances, right and left. I suspect that in those cases they weren’t extremists, you just have the opinion that they were. Take for example that one of the largest voting blocks for Democrats is black people. Black people are overwhelmingly anti-SSM. The Democratic party is the party for SSM. Say that 80% of all members of the Democratic party are homophobic, but the other 20% happens to make up most of the leadership and therefore decide the platform. Only a small minority of the leadership is homophobes and are considered “extremists” by the other leaders. Now when the main part of the leadership is ousted and the extremists come into power and run all over gay rights, is this really an act of extremism? Or is it simply that the party has finally become representative of its actual members instead of an intellectual elite? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-also-facing-internal-faction-fight-this-year/531301.md?page=2)