# Democrats and the "I told you so's" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866 "2005-10-25T19:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/141 "2005-10-28T19:14:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This is why it’s advisable to have some actual evidence to back up your assertions before you make them. I’m not about to go on a three-hour Google search every time it occurs to me to say something in the course of perusing these forums and their various threads. If I occasionally have to eat crow, then so be it. > [@Kimstu](#): > > As a matter of fact, this **is** exactly why “liberal” has become a dirty word in this country: because irresponsible, ill-informed conservatives keep smearing liberals with accusations that they can’t back up with facts. Sorry, but this just isn’t so. Liberal has become a dirty word in this country simply by virtue of its own of its own influence and the consequences thereof. I’ve heard far more irresponsible, ill-informed and downright dishonest claims made regarding conservatives over the years than you have ever heard about liberals. This is necessary because liberalism tends to be its own undoing, whereas distortion and dishonesty are required to undo conservatives. > [@Kimstu](#): > > And off you go again, undaunted by your previous embarrassment, making unsupported assertions about how it’s all the liberals’ fault. Given your obvious knee-jerk anti-liberal biases and your indifference to factual evidence, I don’t see how you can expect anybody to take any of your claims seriously. Frankly, I don’t much care if you take them seriously. I could have had iron-clad proof that that man had done nothing wrong in twenty years and that even by their own admission a cabal of liberal activists had formed to take that baby away from its totally innocent mother, and absolutely nothing would be any different in your or anyone else’s thinking. We all have our beliefs and our philosophies and frankly, nothing said on these boards is likely to put the slightest dent in them. You believe as you do because of certain deep-seated beliefs and you filter everything through them and respond accordingly. I do the same. There is no cite I could come up with on any subject you deeply disagree with that is likely to change your mind in the slightest. Same with me. This is largely the reason I tend not to worry too much about cites before I say something: it’s largely a waste of time. Like it or not, we are largely stating opinions here. No ignorance is being eliminated. No difference, on a national level is being made. There is no absolute proof that exists to show which is the superior philosophy. It is all opinions. I come on here and read threads in various forums. If I see something that trips my trigger, either here or in the news, I comment on it in order to state my opinion. This I will continue to do. And, as I said above, if that occasionally means I have to crow, then I will do so. But keep in mind you’ve won no great victory here, nor have you vanquished me in the slightest. Liberalism is still perceived in the way that it is by a large segment of the population, and that is the result of its own consequence. The fact that I offered up a refutable example of why this is so really changes nothing in the overall scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/142 "2005-10-28T19:24:16Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Sorry, but this just isn’t so. Liberal has become a dirty word in this country simply by virtue of its own of its own influence and the consequences thereof. I’ve heard far more irresponsible, ill-informed and downright dishonest claims made regarding conservatives over the years than you have ever heard about liberals. This is necessary because liberalism tends to be its own undoing, whereas distortion and dishonesty are required to undo conservatives. At this point, you’ve got no credibility: your declarations not only display ignorance, but they also display a cavalier disregard for the truth. You say things like this, but I know that you don’t care about their truth value; therefore, neither do I. Danile ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/143 "2005-10-28T19:28:58Z")
“Bipartisanship is another name for date rape.” –Grover Norquest, conservative activist and “field marshall” of the Bush plan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/144 "2005-10-28T19:36:11Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’m not about to go on a three-hour Google search every time it occurs to me to say something in the course of perusing these forums and their various threads. Pussy. **Real** Dopers care about whether what they say is actually true or whether they’re just pulling it out of their ass. And we don’t mind if we have to spend a little time on research in order to determine that. (And for a person of at least average intelligence, that task shouldn’t take anywhere near three hours, by the way.) > [@Starving Artist](#): > > You believe as you do because of certain deep-seated beliefs and you filter everything through them and respond accordingly. I do the same. Nope. I do my best to check the facts before I come to conclusions, and draw my conclusions based on factual evidence to the best of my ability. You, by your own admission, can’t be arsed even to look something up in Google before making wild-assed claims about it., and you don’t care when you’re proved wrong because you’re not going to change your mind anyway. Sure, everybody has **some** original bias in favor of or against particular positions. But that doesn’t mean that biases have to be impervious to facts, as yours seem to be. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > There is no cite I could come up with on any subject you deeply disagree with that is likely to change your mind in the slightest. Same with me. This is largely the reason I tend not to worry too much about cites before I say something: it’s largely a waste of time. It’s sad enough that your own top priority is preserving your ignorance and your biases unchanged, even in the face of factual refutation. It’s even sadder, though, that you assume that everybody else around here must be as wilfully stupid as you are. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > No ignorance is being eliminated. Well, none of yours, certainly. However, I’m glad to say that most people on these boards don’t seem to cherish their ignorance as deeply as you do, and we’re open to having it eliminated by factual evidence. Even when that evidence supports conclusions that go against our original biases. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/145 "2005-10-28T19:38:16Z")
“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.” -Napoleon Bonapart ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/146 "2005-10-28T19:41:34Z")
_Pussy?_ You called me a _pussy_? Ha, ha, ha. What wonderful memories of high school. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/147 "2005-10-28T19:43:03Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Well, apparently the alternative is to put the country into several trillion dollars worth of debt. It’s either one or the other. So, you still have your money. It just isn’t worth anything. Oh, and your police force is smaller, not as many firefighters, yada yada. Impossible. Everone knows that Republican administrations are best with economics and are friends to Heroes such as firefighters, police, and soldiers. We currently have a Republican-controlled country. Therefore you’re wrong. They are also more effective at national security. Therefore, we are safer than ever. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/148 "2005-10-28T19:53:49Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’m not about to go on a three-hour Google search every time it occurs to me to say something in the course of perusing these forums and their various threads. If I occasionally have to eat crow, then so be it. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but this just isn’t so. Liberal has become a dirty word in this country simply by virtue of its own of its own influence and the consequences thereof. I’ve heard far more irresponsible, ill-informed and downright dishonest claims made regarding conservatives over the years than you have ever heard about liberals. This is necessary because liberalism tends to be its own undoing, whereas distortion and dishonesty are required to undo conservatives. Reverse the order of the quotes above and wonder if not getting evidence for your positions shows that you are in reality projecting here. Many times eating crow is happening because places like the SDMB show that conservatives are publishing or broadcasting opinions pased as news, based on half-truths or bad information. Problem is that even the crow eaters then continue to assume that the places that gave them that faulty information are still reliable. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I don’t much care if you take them seriously. I could have had iron-clad proof that that man had done nothing wrong in twenty years and that even by their own admission a cabal of liberal activists had formed to take that baby away from its totally innocent mother, and absolutely nothing would be any different in your or anyone else’s thinking. > > We all have our beliefs and our philosophies and frankly, nothing said on these boards is likely to put the slightest dent in them. You believe as you do because of certain deep-seated beliefs and you filter everything through them and respond accordingly. I do the same. There is no cite I could come up with on any subject you deeply disagree with that is likely to change your mind in the slightest. Same with me. This is largely the reason I tend not to worry too much about cites before I say something: it’s largely a waste of time. Poppycock, I began to reassess my anti-gun position and illegal immigrant position based on the evidence presented by conservatives here in the SDMB, only a dedicated ignorant could be proud of what you are saying here. > [@](#): > > Like it or not, we are largely stating opinions here. No ignorance is being eliminated. No difference, on a national level is being made. There is no absolute proof that exists to show which is the superior philosophy. It is all opinions. You think I am replying only to you? The fact is that there are always more lurkers that will get information and will figure out what is the less reliable position based on the evidence brought forth. > [@](#): > > I come on here and read threads in various forums. If I see something that trips my trigger, either here or in the news, I comment on it in order to state my opinion. This I will continue to do. And, as I said above, if that occasionally means I have to crow, then I will do so. Good, I still think guys like you are in reality working secretly in favor of the liberal causes by showing how out of it people are that adopt extreme conservative positions. Of course, depending on what you know, eating crow can be an enjoyable experience: [http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm](http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm) (That link may be TMI for some) > [@](#): > > But keep in mind you’ve won no great victory here, nor have you vanquished me in the slightest. Liberalism is still perceived in the way that it is by a large segment of the population, and that is the result of its own consequence. The fact that I offered up a refutable example of why this is so really changes nothing in the overall scheme of things. In a message board that is based on fighting ignorance, your defeat happens to you here because of the fact (not an opinion) that what you are saying remains a fallacy: [http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html](http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/149 "2005-10-28T20:05:13Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > You believe as you do because of certain deep-seated beliefs and you filter everything through them and respond accordingly. I do the same. > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Nope. I do my best to check the facts before I come to conclusions, and draw my conclusions based on factual evidence to the best of my ability. > > > > You, by your own admission, can’t be arsed even to look something up in Google before making wild-assed claims about it., and you don’t care when you’re proved wrong because you’re not going to change your mind anyway sadder is the fact that he can’t be bothered to change his _modus operendi_, he will continue to react to partial messages, not bother to find out the truth, and to think that that’s a reasonable way to make decisions. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/150 "2005-10-28T20:18:13Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > **crowmanyclouds** , occasionally in the course of arguments around here I’m forced to admit I’m wrong about something, and based upon the excellent information you provided in your last post, I have no reasonable choice but to acknowledge that the actions taken by the child welfare agency in this case was the correct one. I thank you. Abandoning a strongly held opinion, in the face of evidence to it’s contrary, is becoming a lost art. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Although I disagree quite a bit with some of the things you say, now is not the time to argue about them. I look forward to having that argument with you. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I congratulate you for an excellent post and for an excellent job in ferreting out the information. Several online searches I made revealed none of that. Clearly, I could have done a better job in researching the subject myself once I was challenged on it. GOOGLE IS MY GOD > [@Starving Artist](#): > > In this case, the child welfare workers are clearly doing the right thing. > > Regards, > **SA** OK ready for a shocker, I think your original result might in fact be correct, it’s how you got there that I disagree with. EddyTeddyFreddy put it quite well in post [128](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6733234&postcount=128) . Here’s (IMHO) the problem; Mr. & Mrs. WolfHawk might be getting a bum rap! We don’t have the details of his crimes. He appears to be in his 40’s, so he would have been in his early 20’s at the time of his conviction. What if a 22 year old Mr. WolfHawk, got lucky one night, and had a threesome with two 17 year olds, and one of the girl’s parents found out, and went ballistic. This would change my opinion of him. Similarly, if Mrs WolfHawk is only a recreational drug user, she shouldn’t lose custody of her children. In the end we have two questionable factions, Mommy state “liberals” AND, Daddy state “conservatives”. Mom wants to protect the kids, and Dad wants to too. Dad (the state of PA) passes Megan’s Law, and Mom (Schuylkill County Children & Youth Services) runs with it. Impassioned do-gooders on BOTH sides can go to extremes. They seek simple solutions to complex problems. While they both have good intentions, the results can sometimes be disastrous. Example; The [Rockefeller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_drug_laws)[drug](http://www.prdi.org/rocklawfact.html)[laws.](http://www.drugpolicy.org/statebystate/newyork/rockefellerd/index.cfm) > [@](#): > > Under the Rockefeller Drug Laws, the possession of four ounces or sale of two ounces of certain controlled substances is a Class A felony and carries a penalty of 15 years to life in prison. Possession of two ounces or the sale of half an ounce mandates three years to life in prison. > Persons convicted of Class A felonies, regardless of the nature of their involvement, receive the same maximum sentence as people convicted of murder, arson, and kidnapping. They are punished more severely than most felons convicted of rape, manslaughter, and robbery. Fifty-five percent of all Class A drug felons have no prior criminal convictions of any kind. Even the notoriously harsh federal mandatory minimum sentences only require a five-year sentence for the first offense sale of 500 grams (nearly 18 ounces) of cocaine. > Enacted in the same year, the Second Felony Offender laws aggravate the severity of the Rockefeller Drug Laws. The Second Felony Offender laws mandate significantly increased sentences regardless of whether both felonies were nonviolent drug offenses, whether the offender was a productive member of his or her community, or how many years passed between convictions. > Not surprisingly, the Rockefeller Drug Laws and Second Felony Offender laws have resulted in an enormous expansion of the prison population. In 1980, eleven percent of those incarcerated were drug felons; in 2003 now drug felons comprise 38 percent of the prison population. The increase is more staggering for women where 45 percent of the women currently in prison (2002) were sentenced for drug crimes. Over 70 percent of these men and women have never been convicted of a violent felony. While Rockefeller’s conservative credentials might be in question, he sure as hell wasn’t a pot smokin’ hippie! We probably disagree about the legalization of marijuana, but maybe we can agree that the possession of a couple of ounces shouldn’t be punished the same way that murder, manslaughter, rape, kidnapping, arson, and robbery are. Without either of us being soft on crime? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/151 "2005-10-28T20:33:17Z")
These constant references to “eating crow” are making me nervous. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/152 "2005-10-28T20:48:46Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Pussy? You called me a pussy? > > Ha, ha, ha. What wonderful memories of high school. So women have been calling you “pussy” as far back as high school, eh? I’m not sure why you consider that a wonderful memory, but I’m glad it made you happy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/153 "2005-10-28T20:50:54Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > These constant references to “eating crow” are making me nervous. :eek: I told you not to read that link!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/154 "2005-10-28T21:12:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So women have been calling you “pussy” as far back as high school, eh? I’m not sure why you consider that a wonderful memory, but I’m glad it made you happy. No, actually no one called me a pussy much in high school. It’s just that such name-calling is typical of the high-school mentality. Also, I’d have been more polite had I known you were a woman. (We conservatives are like that you, you know.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/155 "2005-10-28T21:14:00Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Impossible. > > Everone knows that Republican administrations are best with economics and are friends to Heroes such as firefighters, police, and soldiers. > > We currently have a Republican-controlled country. Therefore you’re wrong. > > They are also more effective at national security. Therefore, we are safer than ever. > > -Joe That’s why New York got shorted in getting enough per capita anti-terra money, while Wyoming got a lot more per capita. That’s also why terra is still happening. We are not safer than ever. While we are at it, with all the goodness and happy thoughts going to the military, what about that armor they were supposed to get, and the reimbursements for armor they bought out of their own pocket? How’s that backdoor draft going? How about those 15000 dollar bonuses that got yanked? Etc etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/156 "2005-10-28T21:22:08Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Also, I’d have been more polite had I known you were a woman. (We conservatives are like that you, you know.) Except when the woman’s name rhymes with “Millary Flinton.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/157 "2005-10-28T21:41:13Z")
Nah…even then I’d probably be more polite to her than her husband, Phil Flinton. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/158 "2005-10-28T21:41:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Except when the woman’s name rhymes with “Millary Flinton.” Yeah, and were nothing but deferential and courteous to Chelsea as well. **Kimstu** , I promise that I am not stalking you, but damn, you’re just the best. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/159 "2005-10-28T21:52:27Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Yeah, and were nothing but deferential and courteous to Chelsea as well. Have you not seen the several posts I’ve made where I described how I turned away from Rush Limbaugh after his cruel and character-revealing joke about Chelsea Clinton shortly after her father took office? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/160 "2005-10-28T21:55:04Z")
Thanks **Hentor** , muchas smooches! And **Artist** , that means I have to be polite back at you. Damn. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866.md?page=9)