# Democrats and the "I told you so's" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866 "2005-10-25T19:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/161 "2005-10-28T22:15:30Z")
Don’tcha hate it? Actually, I think most of us here are good people regardless of our political persuasion and/or arguments among ourselves. I think it’s great when we reach some sort of rapprochement where we can set aside our differences and relate to each other simply as people. You might find it amusing to know that of the closest friends I’ve made here, most are liberals. The same goes for my offline life, as well. There’s just something about this place that makes me come on stronger than I do offline, and it is probably because many of my opponents tend to come on stronger with me than they do in offline life. It’s a vicious circle. Anyway, I’ve usually found myself trying to be relatively respectful and polite when dealing with you as I have found you to be among the more reasonable and thoughtful members of the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/162 "2005-10-28T22:17:13Z")
Aggh! Compliments! Now I don’t just have to be polite, I have to be nice!! Darn you, **Starving Artist**! Darn you to heck!! Ahem. Thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/163 "2005-10-28T22:37:59Z")
You’re welcome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/164 "2005-10-29T03:34:47Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’m not about to go on a three-hour Google search every time it occurs to me to say something in the course of perusing these forums and their various threads. If I occasionally have to eat crow, then so be it. Sorry, but I smell **BULLSHIT** again. Three hours? :dubious: Let’s see, I googled this from your post [#43](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6723871&postcount=43) > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …woman whose baby was taken from her because the father was convicted of a sex offense twenty years ago… [Web Results](http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=woman%20whose%20baby%20was%20taken%20from%20her%20because%20the%20father%20was%20convicted%20of%20a%20sex%20offense%20twenty%20years%20ago) 1 - 100 of about 242,000 for woman whose baby was taken from her because the father was convicted of a sex offense twenty years ago. (0.58 seconds) From any article we can get the names; Web Results 1 - 100 of about 11,500 for Melissa WolfHawk. (0.54 seconds) Web Results 1 - 100 of about 806 for DaiShin WolfHawk. (0.75 seconds) Web Results 1 - 100 of about 40,800 for John Joseph Lentini. (0.44 seconds) Grand total for search time, 2.31 seconds, 295,106 results 3 hours - 2.31 seconds = 2.99935833 hours 2.99935833 hours / 5 minutes = 35.9923 In three hours you could have read 36 articles (ya’d have to be a really, really, REALLY slow reader though) This is the part that pisses me off, most of the articles are basically the same. IF you had bothered to read any three of them, you would qualify as a expert on the case. You’re are right, you do have an opinion, o·pin·ion (ə-pĭn’yən) n. [INDENT]1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:[/INDENT] > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …Sorry, but this just isn’t so. Liberal has become a dirty word in this country simply by virtue of its own of its own influence and the consequences thereof… No, it’s because of conservatives with opinions. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …I’ve heard far more irresponsible, ill-informed and downright dishonest claims made regarding conservatives over the years than you have ever heard about liberals… Example? Just one or two? PLEASE! Or is this just another opinion? > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …This is necessary because liberalism tends to be its own undoing, whereas distortion and dishonesty are required to undo conservatives… Funny, looks to me like, REALITY, has opened a BIG ole can of whoop ass on you conservative types. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …I could have had iron-clad proof that that man had done nothing wrong in twenty years and that even by their own admission a cabal of liberal activists had formed to take that baby away from its totally innocent mother, and absolutely nothing would be any different in your or anyone else’s thinking… But ya had nuttin! and you admitted it! > [@](#): > > **crowmanyclouds** , occasionally in the course of arguments around here I’m forced to admit I’m wrong about something, and based upon the excellent information you provided in your last post, I have no reasonable choice but to acknowledge that the actions taken by the child welfare agency in this case was the correct one…Several online searches I made revealed none of that. Clearly, I could have done a better job in researching the subject myself once I was challenged on it. > In this case, the child welfare workers are clearly doing the right thing… Several searches? Revealed none of it? Dude that’s not weak search-fu, it’s non-existent search-fu! 2.31 seconds, 295,106 results, 242,000 on the first try! Here try one of these next time ([Link](http://www.google.com/search?num=100&complete=1&hl=en&lr=&q=search+engines&btnG=Search) ). At the rate your goin’ your gonna be eatin’ crow till ragnarok. But thanks to GIGObuster we’ve got a lot of new recipes for you to try! 🆒 > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …We all have our beliefs and our philosophies and frankly, nothing said on these boards is likely to put the slightest dent in them… Well DEFINITELY not your’s. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …You believe as you do because of certain deep-seated beliefs and you filter everything through them and respond accordingly. I do the same. There is no cite I could come up with on any subject you deeply disagree with that is likely to change your mind in the slightest. Same with me. This is largely the reason I tend not to worry too much about cites before I say something: it’s largely a waste of time… Well now that you got the link to all those cool search engines, maybe you can find some. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …Like it or not, we are largely stating opinions here. No ignorance is being eliminated. No difference, on a national level is being made. There is no absolute proof that exists to show which is the superior philosophy. It is all opinions… Yeah, FACTS,who needs ‘em? Always tryin’ to fuck with my superior opinion philosophy! Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty fact! You maniac facts! You blew it up! (my superior opinion philosophy) Damn you! God damn you all to hell!" 2+2=4 that’s just your opinion. I reject your reality, and replace it with my own! 2+2 now equals SPLUNGE!!! 😃 ([?'s](http://www.numberporn.com/archives/000175.php) ) > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …I come on here and read threads in various forums. If I see something that trips my trigger, either here or in the news… Since I think I know what your favorite news source is.[❤](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6724845&postcount=23) Things are beginning to make sense. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > … I comment on it in order to state my opinion. This I will continue to do. And, as I said above, if that occasionally means I have to crow, then I will do so… That’s EAT crow. Now clean your plate or NO dessert. (Oh, did I mention, you’re having crow for dessert?) > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …But keep in mind you’ve won no great victory here, nor have you vanquished me in the slightest… Vanquished schmanquished. Your the one eating crow. Me, I’m havin’ turkey, with ALL the fixins, and, for dessert, I got pie! 😛 > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …Liberalism is still perceived in the way that it is by a large segment of the population, and that is the result of its own consequence. The fact that I offered up a refutable example of why this is so really changes nothing in the overall scheme of things… A “refutable example” can prove “why this is so”. 😕 Only if **you** reject reality, and replace it with something completely different! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/165 "2005-10-29T03:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > …Vanquished schmanquished. > Your the one eating crow. > Me, I’m havin’ turkey, > with ALL the fixins, > and, > for dessert, I got pie!.. Suddenly, I’m rather hungry. Ravenous, even. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/166 "2005-10-29T04:05:13Z")
And when they ask me “are ya full” I says “never, more” Ayyy there’s alway’s room for more. ---
**Author:** ![Quilter4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e68b1a/32.png) [@Quilter4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quilter4)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/167 "2005-10-29T12:45:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am getting so sick of hearing from Democrats bashing at the Republicans and talknig about how the Republicans failed us in the past few years. _NOW I AGREE WITH THAT! Personally, I think it’s time that the Democrats and Republicans went the way of the Whigs and the Tories! We need new political parties that aren’t out to screw the people and the aides, literally and figuratively. And I believe the Constitution allows that, because we no longer have Whigs or Tories - so maybe it’s time the Republicans and Democrats give it a rest, also._ ---
**Author:** ![Quilter4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e68b1a/32.png) [@Quilter4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quilter4)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/168 "2005-10-29T12:51:14Z")
So, in your research have you discovered when the word “liberal” became a BAD word? Personally, I’m proud to be a LIBERAL AMERICAN with a strong belief in the Constitution and what it stands for. And just because I’m a LIBERAL AMERICAN doesn’t mean I stand with the Democrats OR the Republicans, both parties having failed or are failing the country we are proud of miserably (where’s George Washington when you need him!). So, any clues when I became a bad person? Who votes for the right person and NOT THE RIGHT PARTY! Anyone else research the candidates? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/169 "2005-10-29T14:35:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That’s why New York got shorted in getting enough per capita anti-terra money, while Wyoming got a lot more per capita. That’s also why terra is still happening. We are not safer than ever. While we are at it, with all the goodness and happy thoughts going to the military, what about that armor they were supposed to get, and the reimbursements for armor they bought out of their own pocket? How’s that backdoor draft going? How about those 15000 dollar bonuses that got yanked? Etc etc etc. The problem is minimal. It is simply a few small non-incidents being misreported and overreported by the Mainstream Liberal Media. If you would like to skip the middleman, feel free to tune to the EIB Radio Network so you can be completely clear on what you should and should not think. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/170 "2005-10-29T15:53:10Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > The problem is minimal. It is simply a few small non-incidents being misreported and overreported by the Mainstream Liberal Media. > > If you would like to skip the middleman, feel free to tune to the EIB Radio Network so you can be completely clear on what you should and should not think. > > -Joe Shrugt. I read about all this in the LA Times, LA Daily News, Newsweek, and severl other places while it was happening. I don’t see them as non-incidents. It can be taken as the inevitable result of charging into something without worrying about the repercussions and details. You fight with the army you have (even if they are undermanned and poorly equipped and you have no long range plan or exit plan). You refuse to consider that it may not be possible to simply take over right away and do it cheaply. You institute a backdoor draft so people can’t leave when their hitch is up. You promise them bonuses and then renege. You short NYC out of promised money, and then give it to Cheney’s state (Wyoming). I think I have my facts pretty straight. I am tired of the talk about the Liberal mainstream Media. For several years, the media was just Bush’s echo chamber. The NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and all the talking heads (Rush, Hannity, Fox News) were in Bush’s corner. So don’t tell me about the Vast Librul Media Conspiracy. Try another talking point. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/171 "2005-10-29T16:43:44Z")
I believe you are misinterpreting the tone of the post you’re quoting. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/172 "2005-10-29T17:08:19Z")
Did I get whooshed? Or did I whoosh myself? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/173 "2005-10-29T17:32:52Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Did I get whooshed? Or did I whoosh myself? Let’s put it this way: That’s one helluva breeze you’re standing in. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/174 "2005-10-29T23:59:25Z")
mswas, Sorry to take so long to respond to your post. Although from the length of this thread it looks like the earth hasn’t exactly stood still since then… > [@mswas](#): > > **Plynck** Well, I’d like to see people working together. What I’d like to see is the more libertarian minded republicans split off and work with the democrats who actually want to see social change. I don’t think we need the government to solve all of our problems. I feel like it’s not focusing on the things it should be focusing on and focusing too much on things that aren’t important. The focus on the drug war has divided communities, put many people in jail with violent offenders, and has made America into an abusive patriarch to many developing nations. I don’t need the government to micromanage my day to day, in fact, I am better off when they do not. I’d certainly agree with you on the “drug war” and incarceration in this country. The abusive patriarch allegation is strange, however; should we be benevolent to developing nations who want to ship their heroin to our country in order to boost their GDP? I think that the parties \*are \* redefining themselves. The Rep. and Dem. parties of today bear little resemblance to those of 40 years ago, and they will change further. There was an earlier reference to the Dem. party as being comprised of splinter groups. That may be true, but I think it is equally applicable to the Rep. party as well. For example, I think that those who truly embrace the “Pro-Life” stance must be somewhat disconcerted to be in the same party as gun right extremists, or pro-war activists, or those favoring capital punishment. But they will hold their collective noses when they pull the lever, in hopes that their candidate will enact legislation that favors their position. I think that we are seeing parties reshape themselves with voters’ temperaments. As far as the government micromanaging: I think that more of that takes place at the state level (see my comments below). But I do see the increasing urbanization of this country which will require more governmental regulation. I have a rather simplistic view as to political parties; I think that as a very general rule, rural areas favor Republican values, and urban areas favor Democratic values. This is chiefly because it is easier to take care of local problems locally when one knows everyone affected, so Republicans favor smaller government. When it comes to problems in the city, it really takes agencies to provide solutions; hence the Democratic support of social services. One has only to look at the gradual dismantling of FEMA, and the Katrina disaster to see the problems associated with making government smaller at the expense of the people. > [@mswas](#): > > To me party affiliation is pretty arbitrary. I’d rather see a more a la carte based political system rather than a Prix Fixe Dinner. This is supposed to be the point of states rights, which have been eroded over time. I am tired of bills that make sense having pork added to them because of congressmen’s personal issues with one another. I am tired of seeing a country that says “ignorance of the law is no excuse”, when there is no possible way for the poor to actually know the law, not even the rich know the law, but they can afford a team of lawyers to know it for them. This has come about because of a battle between democrats and republicans, where they use the American legal system to vie for power. Basically as I see it they both represent half of a healthy agenda, and that bad things happen when one or the other is in power. I’d like to see a healthy balance. I feel that what I say SEEMS contradictory because most people cannot comprehend the political system outside of their halfway view. Well, sometimes I’m half-witted, and sometimes half-assed, so this won’t be anything new to me. The biggest problem I have with states’ rights is that I can see it leading to the increasing Balkanization of this country. States contribute and demand differently from the federal government, but we are all at least together by being Americans. I sometimes despair when people in one state act like problems in other states aren’t their concern. Again, Katrina is an example of that, but I’ve shot my mouth off about that in other threads, so I’ll just leave it there. > [@mswas](#): > > I feel that if liberals actually wanted to help the poor, they’d be in poor communities helping people build a functioning community and helping them connect to other communities, rather than lobbying Washington all the time. Again, see my comments above with respect to R. vs D., but my guess is that they do help people in urban areas more than conservatives. No cites, just what I have witnessed, so YMMV. In rural areas, it is likely to be reversed. And there is no way that certain adversities can be conquered \*except \* with the help of Washington. > [@mswas](#): > > I am tired of seeing ballots with only one candidate in local elections, while everyone is so focused on the upper echelons that are far removed and remote. I feel like the two party system engenders a celebrity culture in politics, which is really awful for the country. People talk about it like it’s more important than sports, and it’s true it is, but they aren’t acting like they are talking. They aren’t out making sure they have a healthy city council, they are busy blaming whatever party it is they are not. Yeah, no comment here one way or the other except that it sometimes makes no sense to run against an incumbent if they are doing a good job and the challenger has nothing new to bring to the table except a fresh face. > [@mswas](#): > > For instance, what does party affiliation have to do with a bill to build a new park? What does it have to do with mass transit? What does it have to do with police protection? Fiscal responsibility is important no matter who is in power, and it’s criminally inefficient to have a democratic administration for 8 years who spends time and effort building an effective system, only to have it torn down by a republican administration 8 years later, and vice versa. I am tired of seeing abortion decide issues like whether or not we go to war. I think the Pro-choice people might agree with you about the war decision. It’s the bed that they climbed into; and I sincerely hope that they can’t sleep at night because of it. > [@mswas](#): > > And something that sickens me every time I see it is when people from both sides talk about American soldier deaths as the reason the war is bad. These are SOLDIERS who chose to pick up a gun, their deaths are to be expected in war, but you rarely hear people talk about the Iraqi civilian deaths which are in the 100,000 range. You rarely hear them talk about how many people died in Iraq under sanctions in the 90s, which is FAR MORE than died during the war, yet you’ll hear Democrats talk about how sanctions are far more civilized than war. And your solution is—? You’ve lost me. If you’re saying that we shouldn’t have gone to war, I agree. Saddam Hussein was a vicious man, and the world is better with him out of power. The question is whether the world is better now that we have taken on a war in Iraq, and the “lesser of two evils” excuse doesn’t cut it for me. There are organizations that are devoted to reforming party policies to reflect new and changing views of the populace. If you feel so strongly, please join one and make your voice heard, but right now I hear you saying the same “I told you so” that you attribute to the Democrats. plynck ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866/175 "2005-10-30T22:14:41Z")
Plynck: I may be saying the same I told you so as the Democrats, but _I_ never justified the patriot act, I was always against it, as opposed to many of the Democrats that voted it into law. As for the war, the problem is this, colonialism failed, the European powers saw this, and they removed themselves from their colonies en masse, what did America do? America took the reins of colonialism. We helped empower both Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. We are helping out Pakistan, but what happens if Musharraf is assassinated and one of bin Laden’s compatriots becomes the head of that nation? I see an endless cycle going on, I see a few elites fighting each other for supremacy of the world’s pre-eminent empire. I think we should back off and go back to being more isolationist. THe world is in such a state now that with the internet there will always be markets to do business in, we don’t need to force one into existance like we are doign in Iraq. Both parties use the same big law firms, the same fund traders, the same PR firms. I fail to see how it’s actually any different other than what constituency they pander to. Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-and-the-i-told-you-sos/327866.md?page=8)