Democrats are just as bad as Republicans (BobLibDem & Inigo Montoya standoff 😊 )

[JDYanYan]

That’s called doomerism, and it sucks. We are probably on track for a rough several decades. It looks like we’re projecting out to a 2.5C increase. And that freaking sucks (obviously to possibility of a gulf stream collapse is also terrifying)

But renewables will become the majority of energy generation in our lifetime. Humans are also very good at getting our homework in at the deadline.

Also thanks to the idiocy of the current regime a lot of industries and governments now see petroleum as a much less reliable source of energy. Trump may have accidentally kicked off a green energy revolution thanks to his war on Iran.

[steronz]

@JDYanYan

That’s called doomerism, and it sucks.

I’m aware of this attitude, but I’ve hijacked this thread enough. And given the widespread inaction on climate change, I’ll concede that it’s probably not the best argument that Democrats (specifically) don’t walk the walk.

[JDYanYan]

I appreciate the concession, and also appreciate your anxiety, which I’ve lost a lot of sleep over the years to.

I think there is a human problem (of which Dems naturally are a part of) that we are penny wise and pound foolish about catastrophic multi trillion dollar problems that could have been headed off in the 90s for a fraction of a fraction of the cost. (Of course the leading voice on this at the time was a guy who lost the presidential election to George W. Bush and his Halliburton owned VP thanks to green party voters that thought both parties were the same)

But the soul of democrats, what makes them decent (on balance) is that the base of the party is made from a culture of people working to plant trees whose shade they’ll never rest under. We may never see the solution to and resolution of climate change but the people who come after will. That’s worth staying in the fight, and pushing for flawed, incremental, not good enough, too late, mediocre progress whenever and however we can get it.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@JDYanYan

Also thanks to the idiocy of the current regime a lot of industries and governments now see petroleum as a much less reliable source of energy. Trump may have accidentally kicked off a green energy revolution thanks to his war on Iran.

A while back I equated Trump/MAGA to Johnny Rotten/Punk Rock. Both entered the arena with plans for its destruction. Rock n Roll survived Punk and was revitalized beyond imagination. The jury is still out on whether Trump represents the end of representative democracy, or the inspiring force behind more robust and productive versions of it. I’ve also marveled at how Democrats almost exclusively pedaled renewables as a solution for humanity’s shameful ravaging of the planet (it’s no wonder they don’t have any friends), and haven’t really emphasized the more pragmatic energy independence aspect, for consumers as well as utilities. Sorta looks like they haven’t really been all that interested in renewables, not nearly as much as pointing across the aisle and saying, “THEY’RE the reason we can’t do more.” Stoking the division over problems, not pursuing actual solutions, is key to the survival of both halves. It’s much easier to give voters someone to vote against than it is to find and give them someone to vote for.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

@Inigo_Montoya

haven’t really emphasized the more pragmatic energy independence aspect, for consumers as well as utilities.

What is this?

[Inigo_Montoya]

@DeadTreasSecretaries

What is this?

?? The part about not relying on sources that can be withheld and used as political leverage like oil & gas. You got batteries and panels or windmills, you control your own energy supply. It’s not complicated. ??

[Snarky_Kong]

This is not the correct forum for my opinion on thinking Democrats are as bad as Republicans.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

So renewables?

EDIT: Oh do you mean renewables should have been sold as energy independence as opposed to environmental justice?

[DrDeth]

@JDYanYan

I couldn’t find Bezos donating to Biden’s inauguration, that doesn’t mean he didn’t but he wasn’t mentioned in the article I was reading.

But my larger point is. There is the parties billionaires donate to, and the party billionaires want to win.

Amazon gave $276,000 according to FEC filings, and streamed the event.

Billionaires who donate to democrats-
George and Alex Soros, Stephen Mandel, Mike Bloomberg, Jeff Bezos, Reid Hoffman, Reed Hastings, Deborah Simon, and of course- JB Pritzker. Plus others.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/interactive/2026/06/25/these-are-biggest-individual-donors-2026-election-cycle/

The donors lean Republican… (paywalled)

So yeah, somewhat more ultra rich donate to GOP instead of Dem. But the lines are by no means clear cut.

@Dr.Drake

The Democrats lead to something less bad, and the Republicans to something worse.

If everyone who needs health insurance can get it at a reasonable price, that is way better than “less bad”. Sure, many who are employed and have good insurance through their jobs, etc will keep on with that. But there is Obama care, and the Dems want something like Medi-Cal for everyone who does not have Medicare or work insurance-
https://www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/medi-cal-resources/

Now, some, personally. may think the best and only way is UHC, but most Americans do not agree. The Dems want affordable healthcare for everyone. Maybe not UHC, sure, but as long as people have healthcare, that is what is truly important, is it not?

@steronz

Democrats get a D- on climate change. At least they acknowledge that it’s real.

When did the Democrats have a chance to pass meaningful climate change laws? The answer is- never.

So, yeah, I did nothing to stop Abraham Lincoln from being assassinated in Fords theater. Since i was not born yet, so i could not have. So saying

@steronz

Democrats haven’t done anything substantial about climate change…

Is like blaming me for Lincoln’s death.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@DeadTreasSecretaries

EDIT: Oh do you mean renewables should have been sold as energy independence as opposed to environmental justice?

Oui. Or both, what the heck.

[Dr.Drake]

@DrDeth

If everyone who needs health insurance can get it at a reasonable price, that is way better than “less bad”.

Is it now true that everyone can get insurance at a reasonable price? I read stories like this and that’s not my takeaway. (Edit: the story is about the disappearance of the subsidies, so that’s not about D vs R so much as asking you nicely to verify your claim.)

[DrDeth]

@Dr.Drake

Is it now true that everyone can get insurance at a reasonable price?

No, what the hell are you talking about? That is the GOAL of the Democratic party.

This is starting to sound like “Waah, I wanted a magic Unicorn that poops gold coins, and the Democrats didn’t get me one- so they are meanies and as bad as those nasty Republicans, who just rounded me up and put me in a concentration camp- waahhhh!”

[Jackmannii]

@Inigo_Montoya

Mine is not a documented and carefully reasoned position. It is a gut feeling

We’re seeing a lot of that.

It’s probably best if people with this mindset avoid voting and stay out of politics, other than to post occasional jewels of perspicacity on social media about how the Oligarchs control the world and everything government does is a meaningless farce.

[Babale]

@Dr.Drake

Is it now true that everyone can get insurance at a reasonable price? I read stories like this and that’s not my takeaway.

From your link:

About 8 in 10 Americans, like Brown, who re-enrolled in Affordable Care Act marketplace coverage say their health care costs are higher this year, including about half who say their costs are “a lot” higher, according to a new survey from the health care research nonprofit KFF. A main reason for increased costs was the Dec. 31 expiration of enhanced tax credits that had offset premiums for most enrollees.

So, just, let me get this straight. You see that the ACA, which was helping many Americans for years and years, has had some of its funding expire under a Republican administration because Republicans chose not to extend the funding and this has caused some people (who could previously afford healthcare specifically because of the ACA) to no longer be able to afford healthcare, and your reaction is to blame the Democrats for not doing enough?

Evidence for the veracity of the chart I posted earlier continues to accumulate at an alarming pace:

[Dr.Drake]

@DrDeth

No, what the hell are you talking about? That is the GOAL of the Democratic party.

I think you (and certainly Babale) are misunderstanding my point. You said “If everyone who needs health insurance can get it at a reasonable price, that is way better than ‘less bad’.” Then I said, well, duh, but is that actually the case? And you got irritated at me and more or less called me juvenile and naïve, with a quick reductio ad absurdem. Your argument seems to be “if you don’t like what you’ve got, then you will never be satisfied with anything less than perfection, which is a fantasy, so nothing you say has merit.”

So can we just agree that the Democrats’ goals are wonderful, and the voters are a big part of the problem, and clear that stuff out of the road?

The subject of the thread isn’t “are Democrats better than Republicans,” but are they just as bad. For that, you can’t rely on goals and promises. You have to look at actions, particularly actions taken when the either party had some control. The other party is always present, of course, so neither can been tested in isolation.

What I’m saying is, from the perspective of an ordinary lower-income person, neither party does them much good, but both parties do a lot of good for people who are already wealthy and have the resources and connections to take advantage.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe life for 20-somethings who are starting out and minimum wage workers is better than it was 30 years ago because of what the Democrats have done. But please show me where I’m wrong rather than just getting annoyed at me because you think I’m naïve.

I should add, as well, that from my personal perspective, it’s a lot easier to destroy than to build, and so that puts the Democrats at a practical disadvantage because so much of their time in government is repair that they aren’t as able to enact their agenda. Republicans’ agenda of removing and / or destroying is much easier to implement, and they don’t seem to worry about cleaning up or building. So, again, I’m not blaming or criticizing your precious Democrats (for whom I also vote), but trying to explain why the two major parties are, in certain ways, the same.

[Babale]

@Dr.Drake

Then I said, well, duh, but is that actually the case? And you got irritated at me and more or less called me juvenile and naïve, with a quick reductio ad absurdem

That’s because the obvious answer to your question is “Originally yes, but not anymore now that Republicans allowed the provisions of the bill to expire”.

If your mom gave you a chocolate bar, and then your uncle stole the candy bar from you when she had gone to work, and then you whined about how your mom and uncle are equally bad because after all your mom’s actions didn’t ensure that you would have a chocolate bar when your uncle was in charge, you’d be pretty silly. That’s what you are doing here.

@Dr.Drake

What I’m saying is, from the perspective of an ordinary lower-income person, neither party does them much good, but both parties do a lot of good for people who are already wealthy and have the resources and connections to take advantage.

You must have missed the part about Joe Biden lifting 3 million children out of poverty?

[DrDeth]

@Babale

So, just, let me get this straight. You see that the ACA, which was helping many Americans for years and years, has had some of its funding expire under a Republican administration because Republicans chose not to extend the funding and this has caused some people (who could previously afford healthcare specifically because of the ACA) to no longer be able to afford healthcare, and your reaction is to blame the Democrats for not doing enough?

Yep, and there was no Pony under the tree either. Obviously the Democrats fault.

@Dr.Drake

You have to look at actions, particularly actions taken when the either party had some control.

The “other party” i.e. the GOP when the Dems had congress, could and did block all the best Dem programs.

@Dr.Drake

What I’m saying is, from the perspective of an ordinary lower-income person, neither party does them much good,

The GOP will throw the ordinary lower-income person in a concentration camp if they are the wrong skin color. Not to mention- regressive tax policies, sweeping cuts to the social safety net, and a push for economic deregulation. The GOP cheerfully works on Gutting funding for Medicaid, Medicare, the Affordable Care Act (ACA), SNAP, federal student loan programs, and works to weaken labor protections. The bogus retaliatory tariffs have raised prices for ordinary lower-income families, and the war in Iran has increased inflation and raised gas prices.

The Dems- Passed the ACA, and in Democratic states have raised the Minimum wages to $16.90, and so forth. Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, etc

How Democrats Delivered for the American People in the 117th Congress |...

@Dr.Drake

Maybe life for 20-somethings who are starting out and minimum wage workers is better than it was 30 years ago because of what the Democrats have done.

No, it is worse due to what the Republicans have done. But the ACA has helped and higher minimum wages in- WA =$17.13 per hour, Conn $16.94 per hour, Hawaii and NY = $16.00 per hour. Oregon= $16/hr. Mass= $15, Maryland= $15, and so forth.

Alabama, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, and so forth= $7.25/hour

[CaveMike]

@Dr.Drake

But please show me where I’m wrong rather than just getting annoyed at me because you think I’m naïve.

I think you are looking at the net effect of government and assigning it equally to Dems and Pubs. For this question, it’s necessary to look at the effects of each party individually.

To use @Babale’s example. If your Mom wasn’t in the picture and giving candy bars, what would your Uncle take from you instead? And wouldn’t you be worse off?

ACA enrollment peaked in 2025 at 24.3M people – nearly half of the uninsured. That’s a massive good (or not bad).