# Democrats, leave the issue of abortion alone. The problem is already solved, and it costs votes. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234 "2018-11-09T09:39:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/61 "2018-11-12T16:10:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “The battle against porn” on “the left” was always a fairly fringe cause, not really comparable to the broad liberal support for reproductive rights. The mainstream liberal view on porn is pro-civil-liberties and anti-censorship, which is the view that has currently “won”: largely due to market forces, as you note. > > There is no way that reproductive rights can be adequately defended in the US without talking publicly about birth control and abortion. Your OP appears to be wrong on two counts: reproductive rights are **not** an “already solved” problem, and there is no actual evidence that standing up for reproductive rights actually **does** “cost votes” to Democrats overall. You’re right that the fight against porn was, for the left, always a fringe movement. Not so for the right, though. It is interesting that they just sort of phased quietly out of that battle. What if the Dems quietly phased out of the abortion issue, and broadened it into the general fight for available healthcare for everyone, including women, new mothers, working mothers, children and family planning? Same goals, new package. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/62 "2018-11-12T16:29:46Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > No, that is not my position. Democrats should fight like hell for legislative protection of reproductive rights. But they should do so as a matter of fact. Maybe even with another rationalization ( “we’re voting against this because it intervenes in small-government, and in individual health choices, not because we’re pro-choice feminists. But we’re still voting against it.”) In politics. Smartly. Not just in defensive lawmaking, but also in pro-active lobbying. They should use any arguments they can find to do that. > > What I am saying is that they should stop making it their flag, their defining issue. They should not let themselves be labeled as the pro-abortion party. > > Compare, for instance, these three mission statements. All accomplish the same. Which would get the broadest support? > > 1. “We want good healthcare for woman and child within a one-hour reach of every house in America” (which, in the small print, includes help with familiy planning) > > 2. “We want no woman in the US to have to travel further then one hour to get an abortion”. > > 3. “We want a Planned Parenthood clinic in every county”. > > And take the idea of pro-active lobbying. Someone upthread said that it is illegal to get prescription drugs from outside the country. Is that true? And if it is true, then that seems like the kind of law a lobby group could easily dispatch with. A republican one, even. Just get together with Big Pharma and let them wreck those laws in the interest of free trade and well, whoever wants to make a buck of it. And in the smallest of small print, let this also mean that ordering drugs to end an unwanted pregnancy is no exception. Then let Planned Parenthood start an online branch ( along with a dozen reliable daughters who change name every time they’re outlawed) based in whatever country works best, that dispenses this drug under another name. That is how a smart lobbyist would do this. > > And by the way, Women On Waves also gives advice on how to buy drugs at a normal pharmacy, meant for other problems, and even available without an prescription, that can be used to end an unwanted pregnancy. So that circumvents the whole problem of it being illegal. Pharmacies are everywhere. I have no idea which Democratic party you’re talking about, but this isn’t the “flag, their defining issue.” Their main issue these days is healthcare for all, with coverage for pre-existing conditions. I’d say they are also trying for reduced wealth inequality, funding for education, both for adults affected by changing technology and pre-K classes. They seem to want sensible gun measures (and not a total ban on guns). They seem to want to do something about global climate change with market-based environmental regulations such as cap and trade for CO2 emissions, plus other sensible environmental regulations. Access to reproductive health services is an important part of their platform, but access to all health services is more important. BTW, the Democrats position on abortion is much closer to the majority of Americans than the Republican’s position, which seems to be an outright ban. Most Americans do not want an outright ban. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/63 "2018-11-12T16:40:35Z")
And most Americans don’t want abortion on demand, either. The American public is divided into approximately three equal factions, one which wants abortion to never be allowed, one which wants it to always be allowed, and one which wants it to be allowed in some circumstances but not others. Both sides can therefore claim a 2/3 majority, by appropriate framing of the “two sides”. > [@](#): > > Quoth **kenobi65** : > > From all that I’ve seen, pro-life advocates nearly always argue that human life begins at the moment of conception. Given that, the arguments you’re suggesting would be irrelevant to abortion foes. This focus on “human life” is one of the biggest problems in the abortion debate. Human life doesn’t begin with conception; human life begins about a million years ago, depending on how you define “human”. And there’s nothing special about human life, anyway: There are plenty of instances of human life that everyone agrees have no rights and should be destroyed. What’s important is not “human life”; it’s _personhood_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/64 "2018-11-12T17:08:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This focus on “human life” is one of the biggest problems in the abortion debate. Human life doesn’t begin with conception; human life begins about a million years ago, depending on how you define “human”. Two problems. When folks talk about “human life” in the abortion debate, they are talking about individual humans, not humans as a whole population. IOW, “the life of a human”, not “all human life”. If you’re talking about the emergence of humans, in general, then it would be ~2.1M or ~300K years ago, depending on how you define “human”. That is to say, if you define human as “any member of the genus _Homo_” or "any member of the species “_Homo sapiens_”. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/65 "2018-11-12T17:18:43Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > What I am saying is that they should stop making it their flag, their defining issue. They should not let themselves be labeled as the pro-abortion party. It sounds like you’re railing against the right’s description of the Democratic Party, not the way the Democrats describe themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/66 "2018-11-12T17:22:00Z")
But if you define it as “the life of a human”, then you’re left trying to pin down either “when did it become human”, or “when did it become alive”, and the answer to both is that it didn’t: Both were already true even before conception. And there are human lives, even independent human organisms, that are unambiguously not people: Nobody argues for the rights of HeLa cell cultures, for instance. As for my “about a million years, depending on how you define it”, I was intentionally splitting the difference between those two numbers, to get something of approximately the right order of magnitude. I didn’t mean it as a very precise approximation. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/67 "2018-11-12T17:45:33Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It sounds like you’re railing against the right’s description of the Democratic Party, not the way the Democrats describe themselves. This. And in SO many areas. If you want to find out what Democrats think, ask Democrats not Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/68 "2018-11-12T18:17:42Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > What I am saying is that they should stop making it their flag, their defining issue. They should not let themselves be labeled as the pro-abortion party. …so this entire thread is just a strawman then? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/69 "2018-11-12T23:09:20Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > This. And in SO many areas. If you want to find out what Democrats think, ask Democrats not Republicans. Huh. Here I disagree. If Dems want to know why Reps don’t vote for a Dem, then the image of Dems in Rep media is important. I agree though that that image is not at all under control of any individual Dem. Banquet Bear, no, why would you think that about a straw man? ---
**Author:** ![Aescwynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Aescwynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aescwynn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/70 "2018-11-12T23:12:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so this entire thread is just a strawman then? I saw a poll that asked people who had just voted what their main concern was. 2% said abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/71 "2018-11-12T23:16:08Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Banquet Bear, no, why would you think that about a straw man? …provide evidence for the assertion that the Democrats have made abortion “their flag, their defining issue.” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/72 "2018-11-12T23:32:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …provide evidence for the assertion that the Democrats have made abortion “their flag, their defining issue.” FYI, here’s the [Democratic Party’s 2016 platform](https://democrats.org/about/party-platform/) – this serves as the current platform, as well, since it’s only updated at the National Conventions. The party’s stance on abortion is under the plank of “Ensure the Health and Safety of All Americans,” and part of a larger section on reproductive health: > [@](#): > > Democrats are committed to protecting and advancing reproductive health, rights, and justice. We believe unequivocally, like the majority of Americans, that every woman should have access to quality reproductive health care services, including safe and legal abortion—regardless of where she lives, how much money she makes, or how she is insured. We believe that reproductive health is core to women’s, men’s, and young people’s health and wellbeing. We will continue to stand up to Republican efforts to defund Planned Parenthood health centers, which provide critical health services to millions of people. We will continue to oppose—and seek to overturn—federal and state laws and policies that impede a woman’s access to abortion, including by repealing the Hyde Amendment. We condemn and will combat any acts of violence, harassment, and intimidation of reproductive health providers, patients, and staff. We will defend the ACA, which extends affordable preventive health care to women, including no-cost contraception, and prohibits discrimination in health care based on gender. > > We will address the discrimination and barriers that inhibit meaningful access to reproductive health care services, including those based on gender, sexuality, race, income, disability, and other factors. We recognize that quality, affordable comprehensive health care, evidence-based sex education and a full range of family planning services help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions. > > And we strongly and unequivocally support a woman’s decision to have a child, including by ensuring a safe and healthy pregnancy and childbirth, and by providing services during pregnancy and after the birth of a child, including adoption and social support services, as well as protections for women against pregnancy discrimination. We are committed to creating a society where children are safe and can thrive physically, emotionally, educationally, and spiritually. We recognize and support the importance of civil structures that are essential to creating this for every child. The PDF version of the platform has this plank on page 38 of a 50-page document. tl;dr It’s definitely not the “flag” nor “defining issue” of the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/73 "2018-11-12T23:57:31Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > f Dems want to know why Reps don’t vote for a Dem But as I quoted from the linked article back in post #30 which you seem to keep ignoring, **there is no actual evidence that Democratic candidates are in fact losing Republican votes due to the Democrats’ pro-choice position.** Here, let me highlight part of that quote for you: > [@](#): > > **Conversely, there are a lot more independents and Republicans who are more likely to vote for a candidate who is pro-choice.** So stop trying to tell us that shutting up about abortion rights would produce a net gain of Republican votes for Democratic candidates **when you haven’t even produced any evidence that that’s true**. > [@Maastricht](#): > > And by the way, Women On Waves also gives advice on how to buy drugs at a normal pharmacy, meant for other problems, and even available without an prescription, that can be used to end an unwanted pregnancy. So that circumvents the whole problem of it being illegal. Pharmacies are everywhere. :rolleyes: I usually don’t get exasperated with Europeans blithely assuming that conditions in the US are basically analogous to Europe’s, but speaking as somebody who’s lived both in the rural US and in the (small and super-densely populated) Netherlands: You are not as fully informed about what you’re talking about as you think you are. Pharmacies are not “everywhere” in the sense of being easily accessible to everyone in rural areas in the US. And widely scattered rural pharmacies run or staffed by anti-reproductive-rights zealots are very effective in hampering their customers’ access to birth control and abortion medications, even legal ones. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/74 "2018-11-13T09:39:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …provide evidence for the assertion that the Democrats have made abortion “their flag, their defining issue.” Ah, like that. Well, maybe you’re right. Maybe I was arguing with my own image of what I perceive to be a typical feminist Dem ( it’s one with more then a bit of SJW, in it, and some of the anger shown by posters like Modesty Blaise.). That image is something like here, coming from the very first page of googled images if I google “pro-choice”. [https://www.google.nl/search?q=pro+choice&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjlwfDzhNHeAhVRalAKHXgjCRQQ\_AUIDigB&biw=1851&bih=978](https://www.google.nl/search?q=pro+choice&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjlwfDzhNHeAhVRalAKHXgjCRQQ_AUIDigB&biw=1851&bih=978) As you see, the images on that first page mostly associate with, or amount to, “pro abortion”. As Kimstu’s stats prove, that is not a reality when you talk to intelligent women actually living in the US who are well aqainted with the fight. So… was I -unwittingly- indeed debating a straw man, a strawman I made up out of the pro-abortion images I saw in the media? Images supplied by a trifecta of: 1. images selected by pro-life sites to paint a pro-abortion image of the pro-choice movement 2. lazy magazine editors getting their stock photo’s from those sources when they publish articles about reproductional freedom and womens’ health… 3. The -quite justified- anger of women that show in their online and real-world responses, in their banners during marches, and that supply images and fuel to 1 and 2? I have to admit, that is a possibility. In that case, two things can be the matter: 1. Maastricht doesn’t know what she is talking about, when she says that the image in the media paints a picture that is unproductive for the right for reproductive freedom; 2. Maastricht sees what the average low-information, low-interest voter sees, and not she is the problem, but what that average voter sees is the problem. I think such voters let their image be formed by whatever images and short quotes and emotional snippets they keep seeing in the media. And if that is the case, then there is a problem right there. Although a more subtle one then I thought at first. And it is still a problem of image. Kimstu’s stat of that only 2 percent of people voted with abortion in mind, while, at the same time, posters in the thread have made clear that the reproductive rights via affordable health care are under attack, can mean a few things: 1. the battle for reproductive rights has succesfully been framed as a health care issue ( and if, that is good for the specific topic of womens pro-choice rights is another matter) 2. the battle for reproductive rights has been replaced by the health care issue 3. the issue of pro-choice, framed as itself, is, electorically speaking, something that appeals only to a vocal fringe voting group; I don’t know which. I do know it is a problem. I would like to see that problem solved. I doubt that the current way of fighting is effective. I would like to see new ways of fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/75 "2018-11-13T09:52:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But as I quoted from the linked article back in post #30 which you seem to keep ignoring, **there is no actual evidence that Democratic candidates are in fact losing Republican votes due to the Democrats’ pro-choice position.** Here, let me highlight part of that quote for you: > > So stop trying to tell us that shutting up about abortion rights would produce a net gain of Republican votes for Democratic candidates \*\*when you haven’t even produced any evidence that that’s true. Okay, so if so many politicians Dem and Rep alike, with a pro-choice stance get elected, then why is the problem still so big and getting bigger? Is there perhaps a trend of politicians paying lip service to pro-choice and then always bowing to the pressure by pro-life groups when push comes to shove? It the problem perhaps not one of being pro-choice, but one of showing backbone against such groups? (We have that problem in the Netherlands, when it comes to greening the industrial farming industry. All politicians say they want to “green” that sector up. Trends invariably show the opposite development. The lobby is just fighting harder, meaner. more efficient, more secretive, more in administrative ways. Mostly because in that sector, crime pays). In the pro-live business, donors pay. How much money does that sector get? A lot. [https://www.insidephilanthropy.com/girls-women-grants-funding/2016/7/14/long-distance-funders-the-money-behind-the-endless-abortion.html](https://www.insidephilanthropy.com/girls-women-grants-funding/2016/7/14/long-distance-funders-the-money-behind-the-endless-abortion.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/76 "2018-11-13T18:08:52Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Kimstu’s stat of that only 2 percent of people voted with abortion in mind, while, at the same time, posters in the thread have made clear that the reproductive rights via affordable health care are under attack, can mean a few things: > > 1. the battle for reproductive rights has succesfully been framed as a health care issue ( and if, that is good for the specific topic of womens pro-choice rights is another matter) > 2. the battle for reproductive rights has been replaced by the health care issue > 3. the issue of pro-choice, framed as itself, is, electorically speaking, something that appeals only to a vocal fringe voting group; > > I don’t know which. I do know it is a problem. I would like to see that problem solved. I doubt that the current way of fighting is effective. I would like to see new ways of fighting. About those stats. Health care was the big winner for the Democrats in this past election, and I don’t think it’s possible to overstate its significance, mainly because Republicans have studiously ignored all the problems people are having. Europeans have trouble understanding our health care issues, not their fault, but the reality is that the GOP has been more concerned with dismantling protections and access to health care than protecting these things, and it creates a lot of noise and confusion to blur the issue at the same time so as not to upset the wrong people. So it’s something like: Republicans believe that health care legislation kills jobs, and isn’t necessary, and rewards the lazy and unproductive, and also that we have the best system in the world and any info to the contrary is a liberal plot. AND, that Republicans are the ones actually “saving” the system, protecting insurance coverage for people, and rescuing rural hospitals and such, the _American_ way and not like that socialist Obama fella. So, reproductive issues did not disappear, but they do pale slightly in the context of people not be able to afford their insulin or cancer treatment as we speak. And on the Republican side, it is perhaps to their credit that they did not try to sell their respect for human life very hard in this last election. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/77 "2018-11-13T19:28:15Z")
A lot of it is that abortion rights are under attack on the state level more than the Federal level. The Federal Government can’t really make laws about abortion: they can only choose to fund certain programs (like Planned Parenthood) and, through the Supreme Court, set limits on what laws states can pass. Most of the pro-life legislation is state legislation, and the debate is at the state level–and there’s a different story in every state. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/78 "2018-11-13T19:33:42Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Okay, so if so many politicians Dem and Rep alike, with a pro-choice stance get elected, then why is the problem still so big and getting bigger? Careful, I’m not sure it’s true (and I don’t think I’ve claimed) that a pro-choice stance helps **Republican** politicians overall, even though quite a few Republican **voters** vote pro-choice for Democratic candidates. The subset of Republican voters that constitutes the Republican “base” nowadays definitely demands an anti-abortion stance from their candidates, and Republican candidates generally cannot get elected without the support of that base. But that doesn’t mean that the anti-abortion Republican base would become more supportive of Democratic candidates if the Dems just shut up about abortion. Then you’d have the out-and-proud anti-abortion candidates (Republicans) competing for anti-abortion votes with the kinda-sorta-maybe-probably “not-really-all-that-pro-abortion” candidates (Democrats). And the Republicans are always going to win that competition, even ignoring the many other issues on which the hard-core Republican base prefers Republicans to Democrats. Whereas if Democrats maintain their pro-choice stance, they continue to get the support of pro-choice voters, including quite a lot of Independents and Republicans. In fact, the more voters perceive reproductive rights as an important major issue, the more pro-choice voters are going to choose pro-choice Democrats over anti-abortion Republicans even if they disagree with the Democrats on some other matters. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Kimstu’s stat of that only 2 percent of people voted with abortion in mind Nitpick: It was **Aescwynn** rather than me who quoted that statistic, and s/he said that the pollsters found 2% of voters who had abortion as their **main concern** when voting, not just had it in mind. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Is there perhaps a trend of politicians paying lip service to pro-choice and then always bowing to the pressure by pro-life groups when push comes to shove? It the problem perhaps not one of being pro-choice, but one of showing backbone against such groups? Personally, I agree with other posters such as **Chronos** when they opine that anti-abortion voters are cynically being sold a bill of goods by the Republican Party (and as you noted, by influential donors). They are being conned into thinking that Republicans really want and intend to ban abortions altogether, and that the issue is so overwhelmingly important that any candidate who claims to be anti-abortion must be chosen over any candidate who claims to be pro-choice. This has happened before with other issues, most notably same-sex marriage and gay rights in general. Anybody who remembers the '90s will recall how fired-up the Republican base got about the necessity of “defending marriage” etc. Many Democrats went along with that to some extent, and while it came back to bite them later (e.g., Bill and Hillary Clinton’s acceptance of the Defense of Marriage Act), it’s not clear that it really generated any additional support for them at the time. So what happened in the long run? Societal mores on homosexuality moved leftwards, prodded by a lot of courageous insistence on the part of many gay-rights activists, and the number of Republicans who were reliable anti-gay-rights voters drastically shrank. There is still a lot of Republican support for allowing discrimination against gays on “religious freedom” grounds, but they don’t have the national gestalt with them on that anymore. Same thing will happen IMHO on reproductive rights if we keep courageously standing up for them. A solid majority of Americans are not actually in favor of outright bans on abortions under all circumstances, and the “Abortion=Murder” zealots cannot logically espouse or accept any other position. Ultimately, they can’t win unless we give in to them. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/79 "2018-11-13T19:41:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Careful, I’m not sure it’s true (and I don’t think I’ve claimed) that a pro-choice stance helps **Republican** politicians overall, even though quite a few Republican **voters** vote pro-choice for Democratic candidates. The subset of Republican voters that constitutes the Republican “base” nowadays definitely demands an anti-abortion stance from their candidates, and Republican candidates generally cannot get elected without the support of that base. Exactly this. In the current climate, it’d be very difficult for a Republican candidate for a state or federal office, who was vocally (or even not-so-vocally) pro-choice, to even make it through the primaries (in which they are only facing other Republican candidates). In most states, the GOP primaries largely act as a litmus test to ensure that the selected candidate is one whose stated views and intended policies hew closely to the party line, which usually includes being as opposed to abortion as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234/80 "2018-11-13T20:07:00Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > 1. **Maastricht doesn’t know what she is talking about** , when she says that the image in the media paints a picture that is unproductive for the right for reproductive freedom; > 2. Maastricht sees what the average low-information, low-interest voter sees, and not she is the problem, but what that average voter sees is the problem. I think such voters let their image be formed by whatever images and short quotes and emotional snippets they keep seeing in the media. And if that is the case, then there is a problem right there. Although a more subtle one then I thought at first. > And it is still a problem of image. …definitely option 1. The OP doesn’t argue “the image in the media paints a picture that is unproductive for the right for reproductive freedom.” The media isn’t even mentioned in your OP! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-leave-the-issue-of-abortion-alone-the-problem-is-already-solved-and-it-costs-votes/824234.md?page=5)