# Democrats, lefties and liberals, This one's for you **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930 "2004-06-06T07:05:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/41 "2004-06-06T18:17:46Z")
**Dave** we don’t need to convince _him_, I assume there will be some people who vote for Bush. we just need insufficient numbers to vote for him in key states, to allow for a Democratic candidate to win the vote of the Electorial College. So if it’s all the same to you, I won’t bother with the mouth breathers, but still attempt to sway the thinking members of that party. There’s already folks here who state they voted for BUsh the first time but won’t now. that’s the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/42 "2004-06-06T18:29:09Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > And we almost certainly WOULD have lost thousands of soldiers taking Japan the hard way. [There’s](http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/Japan_surrender_attempts/MS.html) [some](http://www.progressive.org/zinn0800.htm) [difference](http://www.vw.cc.va.us/vwhansd/HIS122/Hiroshima.html) [of](http://hnn.us/articles/167.html) [opinion](http://www.amherstvigil.org/8600.html) [about](http://www.sumeria.net/politics/a-bombs.html) [that](http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/43 "2004-06-06T19:12:18Z")
I didn’t check your other sources, but I don’t know whether you’re aware that your first choice is a history revisionist — in particular, a holocaust denier. ---
**Author:** ![Hrd2hndl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8dc957/32.png) [@Hrd2hndl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrd2hndl)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/44 "2004-06-06T19:35:21Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Yeah, because the one who didn’t inhale didn’t erase years of deficits run up under Republican presidents and run a budget surplus…oh wait… Under Repblican presidents eh? Which outcome do you desire? The one in question ran up a deficit of money to out-bid another nation in a “cold” war – without going to war. He did that instead of invading another nation or fight a war by calling it a peace keeping mission (Mr. I don’t inhale launched wars that the european union would not fight in it’s own euro back yard - this response after WW II when europe said NEVER again, will we allow a dictator to blah blah blabh - Yugoslavia can run amuck in Bosnia and Kosovo) Regan’s economic policies were less out the rich richer and poor poorer here - it was to outspend the communist block bent on playing cat and mouse with our security. You know … international capitalism is what keeps communism thriving. Long enough to resolve that we are gullible enough to believe that those that are envious of us won’t attack us and downsize our defense :rolleyes: surplus or not - it’s a balance sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/45 "2004-06-06T19:38:10Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > He also exhibits every clinical sign of dry drunk behavior. There are no clinical signs of “dry drunk” behavior, because it’s utter psychobabble bullshit that AA uses to smear people who don’t accept their dogmatic beliefs about addiction. > [@](#): > > And we almost certainly WOULD have lost thousands of soldiers taking Japan the hard way. You mean, we might have THOUGHT we might have lost that many. In reality, we probably wouldn’t have, because Japan’s leaders weren’t actually prepared to fight to the death. And even the highest real internal estimates weren’t anywhere near four times what we had lost in the entire war. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/46 "2004-06-06T19:42:19Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > :smack: :smack: :smack: Reagan. I knew that. In fact, I had it like that originally but I changed it when I though, “wait a minute, Reagan or Regan?” and pulled up a newspage which was spelling it wrong, so I changed it. I’ve Googled like mad and can’t find any backup for a vague memory of once reading a story claiming that the original spelling was in fact “Regan” and that Nancy convinced Ronald to change it to “Reagan” so it wouldn’t seem so Irish. :dubious: Okay, I know that’s about as tenuous as it gets, but still that feeble memory niggles at me. Has anyone else ever encountered that story? Is there any truth to it? It’s far from unheard-of for actors to change their names, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/47 "2004-06-06T20:22:30Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > She was wrong in her details and was obviously seriously lacking as an educator but **Sam** used the Nagasaki/Hiroshima exchange as an example of her bashing of conservatives. I’m curious how criticism of a Democrat administration amounts to bashing of conservatives. Yeah, you know that, and I know that, and **Sam** knows that, but did the _teacher_ know that? From the information provided, odds seem good that the answer is “no.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/48 "2004-06-06T20:48:34Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > [There’s](http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/Japan_surrender_attempts/MS.html) [some](http://www.progressive.org/zinn0800.htm) [difference](http://www.vw.cc.va.us/vwhansd/HIS122/Hiroshima.html) [of](http://hnn.us/articles/167.html) [opinion](http://www.amherstvigil.org/8600.html) [about](http://www.sumeria.net/politics/a-bombs.html) [that](http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html). I doubt that Truman had the advantage of hindsight in making his decision. With that advantage, you can make any decision look good … or bad. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/49 "2004-06-06T21:58:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I didn’t check your other sources, but I don’t know whether you’re aware that your first choice is a history revisionist — in particular, a holocaust denier. Is the factual information contained within the cite in error? If so, point it out. If not, fuck your ad hominem. Actually, fuck your ad hominem anyway. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > I doubt that Truman had the advantage of hindsight in making his decision. With that advantage, you can make any decision look good … or bad. What hindsight? > [@](#): > > The Japanese were on the verge of surrender, and American military leaders knew that. General Eisenhower, briefed by Secretary of War Henry Stimson on the imminent use of the bomb, told him that “Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary.” > [@](#): > > The Japanese had begun to move to end the war after the U.S. victory on Okinawa, in May of 1945, in the bloodiest battle of the Pacific War. After the middle of June, six members of the Japanese Supreme War Council authorized Foreign Minister Togo to approach the Soviet Union, which was not at war with Japan, to mediate an end to the war “if possible by September.” > > Togo sent Ambassador Sato to Moscow to feel out the possibility of a negotiated surrender. On July 13, four days before Truman, Churchill, and Stalin met in Potsdam to prepare for the end of the war (Germany had surrendered two months earlier), Togo sent a telegram to Sato: “Unconditional surrender is the only obstacle to peace. It is his Majesty’s heart’s desire to see the swift termination of the war.” > > The United States knew about that telegram because it had broken the Japanese code early in the war. American officials knew also that the Japanese resistance to unconditional surrender was because they had one condition enormously important to them: the retention of the Emperor as symbolic leader. Former Ambassador to Japan Joseph Grew and others who knew something about Japanese society had suggested that allowing Japan to keep its Emperor would save countless lives by bringing an early end to the war. > > Yet Truman would not relent, and the Potsdam conference agreed to insist on “unconditional surrender.” This ensured that the bombs would fall on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > [@](#): > > As early as July of 1944, Japanese military leaders realized that they could not win the war, and the government began looking for a way to end the war without sacrificing their national sovereignty. Of special importance was the fate of the emperor, regarded in Japan as a deity whose removal (or worse, his trial as a war criminal) was unthinkable. And so on. Hindsight has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/50 "2004-06-06T22:03:17Z")
The amusing irnoy, of course, is that even after we got unconditional surrender, we left the emporer alone anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/51 "2004-06-06T22:07:06Z")
**Sam** ’s story sounds an awful lot like that Chick tract bullshit with the evolutionist teacher and the virtuous and pure Christian. But anyway: > [@Hrd2hndl](#): > > Under Repblican presidents eh? Which outcome do you desire? The one in question ran up a deficit of money to out-bid another nation in a “cold” war – without going to war. No, he most assuredly did not. Goddamnit, **read** some of what has been written. > [@](#): > > He did that instead of invading another nation or fight a war by calling it a peace keeping mission (Mr. I don’t inhale launched wars that the european union would not fight in it’s own euro back yard - this response after WW II when europe said NEVER again, will we allow a dictator to blah blah blabh - Yugoslavia can run amuck in Bosnia and Kosovo) Oh, yeah, Reagan certainly never invaded another nation or anything, now did he? My goodness gracious, no! Brush up on your history, Ace. > [@](#): > > Regan’s economic policies were less out the rich richer and poor poorer here - it was to outspend the communist block bent on playing cat and mouse with our security. Um, you are aware that the above is absolute horseshit, right? > [@](#): > > You know … international capitalism is what keeps communism thriving. Oh, man. This is simply **precious**. Since you’ve missed it elsewhere, the USSR was well on it’s way down the shitter when Reagan took office. Now, he and his chums made the USSR out to be the great boogeyman, but it wasn’t. Sweet merciful mother of **fuck**! Are the Reagan backers so hard up for a reason to lionize and deify him that they must use the same ridiculous arguments even after those arguments have been shown to be crap? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/52 "2004-06-06T22:11:47Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Say what you want about Dubya, I bet he’s a lot more fun to share a beer with than Kerry. Sure, but the same thing can be said for John Belushi, and I sure as hell don’t want him as PotUS either… ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/53 "2004-06-06T22:14:46Z")
I have a hard time seeing the drink-a-beer-with-ability of GWB myself. Shrug. He strikes me as the kind who would sulk into his beer and talk only about himself. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/54 "2004-06-06T22:20:49Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Just curious, as I read this thread I’m also watching CBS Sunday Morning’s Reagan lovefest. Reagan was, I’m sure, as vain as most any other actor. But I don’t ever recall seeing him in eyeglasses save perhaps reading glasses that any elderly person might wear. Was he in fact nearsighted, and if so did he wear contact lenses well into his eighties? That is impressive. Almost as impressive as the fact that his hair remained dark. As Johnny Carson said once, “Reagan doesn’t dye his hair; he bleaches his face!” ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/55 "2004-06-06T22:34:51Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Sure, but the same thing can be said for John Belushi, and I sure as hell don’t want him as PotUS either… Zombie Belushi for President! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/56 "2004-06-07T04:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Bush went to the same fucking university as Kerry… It doesn’t say much for Yale that one of their graduates would pronounce _tyranny_ as if it were “tie’-runny.” I do believe that President Bush is a recovering alcoholic, but the evidence for his having “dry-drunk” symptoms is nebulous. The examples taken from his speeches probably reflect more on his speech-writers. I think that the President’s intelligence is probably within the average range at the upper end. That would put him far below most Dopers. I think that President Reagan, God rest his soul, was smarter that President Bush and that President George H. Bush was the most intelligent of the three although he also had a problem with verbal skills. President Reagan’s intelligence may already have been in decline while he was President. His earlier years indicate a much stronger mind; there was more deterioration than would normally be expected. Someone mentioned that President Reagan had been an FBI informant. Was that before or after Nancy Davis, the future Mrs. Reagan, was mistakenly linked to a Communist organization? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/57 "2004-06-07T05:07:42Z")
Reagan became president of the Screen Actors Guild in [1947](http://www.tvparty.com/movreagan.html) and became an FBI informant shortly thereafter, after he and Jane Wyman were approached about possible Communist ties. He didn’t meet Nancy until 1951. I’m not aware that she was accused of being a Communist; according to [this](http://www2.worldbook.com/wc/popup?path=features/presidents&page=html/reagan_nancy.htm&direct=yes) she was receiving “unwanted Communist literature” and sought out Reagan’s advice, as president of her union, on what to do about it. Reagan remained as SAG president until 1960, but not before selling out his fellow thespians by signing away royalties on movies made before 1961. There are still actors who are suffering because of that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/58 "2004-06-07T11:39:55Z")
> [@wring](#): > > **Dave** we don’t need to convince _him_, I assume there will be some people who vote for Bush. Actually, if this kid is younger than 30 or so there’s probably little need for the Kerry camp to worry about him anyway. He may be a Bush supporter (for better or worse) but the odds are about 3-1 that _he won’t vote_. [http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/voting/p20-542/tab01.pdf](http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/voting/p20-542/tab01.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/59 "2004-06-07T14:38:41Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Just curious, as I read this thread I’m also watching CBS Sunday Morning’s Reagan lovefest. Reagan was, I’m sure, as vain as most any other actor. But I don’t ever recall seeing him in eyeglasses save perhaps reading glasses that any elderly person might wear. Was he in fact nearsighted, and if so did he wear contact lenses well into his eighties? That is impressive. There was a picture of Reagan in yesterday’s _New York Times_ testifying before, if I remember right, the House Committee on Unamerican Activities regarding Communist infiltration of the movie industry. The photograph shows him wearing eyeglasses. The lengthy obit also mentioned that he wore contacts throughout his life. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930/60 "2004-06-07T16:51:41Z")
I also had an interesting conversation about politics recently. I had dropped my car off for service and I was being driven back to work in the curtesy van. The driver was a mechanic, blue-collar guy. He was also black. He’s listening to Rush Limbaugh. He says he doesn’t like Bush because “he hadn’t done nothin’” during his time in office. He also says he doesn’t like Bush because of Iraq and that “[Bush’s] friends be makin’ millions off Iraq”. Yet, despite this, he said he feels Bush is the lesser of the two evils because “Can’t vote for Kerry cause he’d be too soft.” Clearly Democracy in action. Enjoy, Steven [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-lefties-and-liberals-this-ones-for-you/248930.md?page=4)