# Democrats, listen up if you'd like to win the election. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026 "2008-09-10T23:58:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/81 "2008-09-11T19:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Is there any evidence whatsoever that Palin wants to take away anyone’s right to have an abortion? I think sometimes people make an automatic assumption that anyone who is deeply religious and personally pro-life automatically is going to work to prevent choice for others. The net result of that belief is a litmus test that says, “Anyone who believes abortion is wrong is not allowed to be a feminist.” But I thought feminists were all about empowering women to make their own choices. Can’t that choice include the the moral judgment that abortion is wrong? > > I did some searching for any evidence that Palin wants to kick off the culture war regarding abortion. I found nothing. I found lots of statements of her personal pro-life beliefs, but nothing that said she’d extend it to others. I don’t want to derail an otherwise interesting thread, but…really, **Sam**? There’s a word for someone who is “personally pro-life” but who wouldn’t take away someone else’s right to make that decision for themselves. That word is “pro-choice”. It’s the exact reason why McCain’s preferred VP candidates Joe Lieberman and Tom Ridge were passed over. [Here’s a Palin spokesman during her gubernatorial race](http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/101906/sta_20061019031.shtml): > [@](#): > > “She would not seek out this issue. She feels like there are several other issues that are paramount to the future of the state,” said Curtis Smith, spokesman for the Palin campaign. > > Smith said Palin is opposed to abortion, but believes an exception should be made if the health of the mother is in danger. > > That’s the only exception Palin would make, though, Smith said. > > “She doesn’t make exception for rape and incest, only for health of the mother,” he said. Yes, she tries to downplay it as something she wouldn’t make a priority, but it’s clear that she doesn’t think anyone should have the right to an abortion for anything less than the mother’s health. Where it falls on her list doesn’t matter–the President doesn’t always get to decide which of his issues comes to the forefront. I think you’re trying like hell to see the libertarian in Palin, and there might even be a little of it there, but not on this issue. Heck, I’d love to hear her say that she wouldn’t work to take away anyone’s right to an abortion; it would end any hope McCain has of winning in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/82 "2008-09-11T19:29:51Z")
> [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](#): > > As to who gets to be a feminist, or who gets to call themselves a feminist. . .well, I don’t get to determine that. Anyone can call themselves a feminist, and I won’t argue the point with them or get pissy about it. And there are certainly points of feminism that have nothing to do with the abortion debate. However, I have a very hard time personally believing anyone who wants to tell me what to do with my own body is a feminist. I am no expert on feminism, but I would argue that governments eveyrwhere, US included, already tell women and men all kinds of things they can’t do with their bodies. Drug use by men and women is illegal, driving without a seatbelt is illegal, even killing yourself is illegal in many places. By that measure feminist should be trying to change all kinds of laws, not just anti-abortion laws. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/83 "2008-09-11T19:32:49Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Sure, you might be able to convince people that their lives suck, and even convince them to vote for you so you can fix it. But they’re not going to love you for it. They loved FDR for it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/84 "2008-09-11T20:22:43Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > So…let me get this straight. Mccain and Palin throw attack ad after attack ad at Obama, Just a small point, but being across the Atlantic, I don’t get to see the attack ads broadcast by either side. I know I can look them up on Youtube, but that’s different. But just to pick the one about sex education for juniors - there’s a pit thread to which I posted - I simply don’t see how people go from that ad to child molesters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/85 "2008-09-11T20:33:08Z")
Its weirder than that, **Quartz**. Oftimes, the ads don’t even run, they don’t spend the money to run the ads (a “major buy”, in the parlance), but simply make the ads and leak them to the tedia, who then trumpet the ads to an audience much larger than the ad would ever reach. The tactic is to “get it out there”. Of course Obama is not pro-child molestor, but now he gets to deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/86 "2008-09-11T22:25:30Z")
I completely agree that in order to win the Democrats need to stay out of the mud. The problem is, it is fairly easy for one side to drag everyone into the mud. The reason the Democrats lose is that they are the ones who are more likely to be so turned off by the process that they stay home. I support Obama in this election, but I am so grossed out by the entire process recently that I can’t stand to watch. It makes me want to stay home and vomit instead of voting. And it isn’t because of anything Obama has done. This is exactly the Republican strategy. It works. It is just like the saying: Never wrestle with a pig… you’ll both get dirty, but only the pig will enjoy it. So how do you deal with the pig? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/87 "2008-09-12T04:05:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Your analogy just died. The rich snooty kids in the private school across town don’t get to vote in your high school’s election, or run for high school president at your high school. While technically correct, you completely miss the point. I can only assume you are a Democrat. The point is, if you can paint someone as an outsider, it goes a long way to rendering any argument they might have as irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/88 "2008-09-12T04:11:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A substantial majority of Alaskans think otherwise. Only the ones who don’t know her, from everything I’ve read. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/89 "2008-09-12T04:29:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They loved FDR for it. Is this a whoosh? Uh, the New Deal, the concept that Americans can pull themselves out of poverty as long as they _work hard_, that we can all do it together if we get a second chance, does that seem familiar to you? This is exactly the kind of stuff that **Sam Stone** is talking about that he mentioned worked so well for Obama. FDR didn’t say, “I’ll kick Hoover and all those Republicans out and hopefully Congress can fix this godawful mess they’ve made.” He said that all Americans needed was a little boost to get them started on a new career path for themselves. You’re the one advocating that Democrats should focus on economic populism; this is what populism is. Nevermind that creating jobs for the sake of jobs didn’t really work, it inspired a lot of people, and now he’s considered one of the greatest presidents because he gave them hope that they could fix their own lives. **Sam** ’s not saying you can’t mention that there are problems, you just have to couch them in a positive framework. If you don’t, you sound like a loser (like the way this election began for the Republicans when Obama was dominating the fractured Republican candidates, or like the 2004 election for Democrats) saying how _we’re going to lose_ if you don’t help, and, oh, isn’t it _terrible_, and look at what \*those \*people are going to do if they win; it sure will suck. No one wants to vote for that; the dedicated base will if they think they must, but you’re not going to draw a huge crowd of your supporters (which is much more important in American politics than actually trying to change people’s minds). Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/90 "2008-09-12T07:05:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The tactic is to “get it out there”. Of course Obama is not pro-child molestor, but now he gets to deny it. I don’t see how anyone who takes the time to look at Obama’s positions and record could possibly construe that he’s pro-child molester. The idea is ridiculous. Pro-infanticide on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/91 "2008-09-12T11:26:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > While technically correct, you completely miss the point. I can only assume you are a Democrat. > > The point is, if you can paint someone as an outsider, it goes a long way to rendering any argument they might have as irrelevant. Can’t argue with you there. It’s a very effective technique to make sure elections don’t actually hinge on actual issues and stuff. You must be proud to be a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/92 "2008-09-12T11:38:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Skimmed the thread. > > I agree with Sam. Even though we may intellectually know that criticism about our problems is a perfectly patriotic act, politics is a lot about a gut reaction as well for a lot of voters. The GOPs negative ads and misdirection work because they create an emotional response among folks who don’t have time to research every issue. The response they’re shooting for is, “I don’t like and/or trust that guy” I think there’s an effective way to combat this. > Obama’s Yes We can was a very positive message. The concept of “yeah, we have problems and we may have stumbled, but we’re all Americans and even though we may disagree at times, together, we will continue to grow and make our country a place we’re proud to call home.” > > I hate the divisiveness of us vs them when we’re all citizen’s of the same country. > > Still, I think it’s reasonable to point out where this administration has failed miserably. > Here’s my own advice for the democrats if they want to attract independents and moderate conservatives. > > When the GOP rolls out the dirt and the trivial crap like Wright etc. take it head on. Call it the dishonest political misdirection that it is. Go ahead and denounce the words and acknowledge that lots of us have friends we disagree with on certain issues. It’s a big country with lots of opinions. Keep talking about the issues that really effect people’s day to day lives and point ouut that the opposition wants and needs a distraction. Make every distraction come to mean, “They don’t really care about you. That’s why they want distractions more than they want solutions” Counterattack strongly every time. Obama has done this but not strong enough. Now with the whole Lipstick thing and the sex ed for kindergarden crap he’s finally stepping up. > > Be strong and direct but not mocking. If you ridicule conservative politicians then people who hold conservative views feel like they are being ridiculed as well. We welcome freedom of speech and diverse opinions. > > Attack the false memes about the Dems namely > 1 They can’t protect you from terrorism. > 2. Tax and spend and endless handouts to the poor. > We will go after terrorists without hesitation. We will not be attacked with impunity. We will work hard with allies to present a united front against terrorism. > If that means boots on the ground then that’s what we’ll do, but we take our vow to protect American lives very seriously. That means we will not send our troops to risk their lives and to take lives until we have exhausted other avenues. > We will encourage all nations to join is a quest for lasting peace, but our enemies will have no doubt that we are ready and strong if they make force necessary. > We want to remove any roadblocks for people who are willing to work hard and take advantage of the opportunities available in America. That means big business and small business. That means the hard working individual trying to provide for his or her family. We’d like to offer some aide to those who are going through a rough patch in their lives and need a helping hand. We want to lift them back to a place where they are working citizens contributing to our great society. We want a simplified tax code that encourages the entrepreneur and people of vision, while not punishing those who are barely getting by. That means those that have more will be asked to give a little more. We will encourage compassion as well as personal responsibility. Thanks Cosmosdon, I wish you would send this to your represenative, you have nailed the problem right on the head! I think I would vote for you, if you were running. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/93 "2008-09-12T12:34:45Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Thanks Cosmosdon, > > I wish you would send this to your represenative, you have nailed the problem right on the head! > > I think I would vote for you, if you were running. > > Monavis 🙂 I took myself out of the running years ago when I was young and stupid and did many stupid things. I think I might retype this and send it though. Thanks for the encouragement. I really want Obama to win but I’m concerned they’ll screw it up. They need the right combination of a strong hopeful, looking forward to tomorrow, message, some details form the thinkers, but not to much for the gut reaction folks. Too often he talks too much and nut of a positive message gets lost. The more he talks about all the programs he wants to establish the more it sounds like tax and spend. He can stress service by encouraging volunteerism and thanking the masses who already volunteer their time. The more the private sector steps up the less government programs we need. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/94 "2008-09-12T12:53:42Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > I am no expert on feminism, but I would argue that governments eveyrwhere, US included, already tell women and men all kinds of things they can’t do with their bodies. Drug use by men and women is illegal, driving without a seatbelt is illegal, even killing yourself is illegal in many places. By that measure feminist should be trying to change all kinds of laws, not just anti-abortion laws. Okay. One last post, then I end the hijack. Abortion’s the only one of those to apply solely to women; the rest’d fall under general libertarianism, and there isn’t a one there I don’t agree with. Anti-abortion legislation also legislates that you must _do_ something (carry a child to term), not that you must _not do_ something. The only comparable law I can see to that is anti-suicide/assisted suicide laws. . .which I also strongly disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/95 "2008-09-12T14:08:31Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > FDR didn’t say, “I’ll kick Hoover and all those Republicans out and hopefully Congress can fix this godawful mess they’ve made.” Didn’t he? If not, it was only because he didn’t need to; everyone else was saying it for him. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/96 "2008-09-12T18:45:48Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I didn’t realize “the majority is always right” was part of the conservative worldview. It isn’t. You made a claim that a substantial majority of the citizens of Alaska would dispute - that Palin’s experience was brief and showed that she was a fuck up. Unless you would like to argue that Bush’s approval ratings do not necessarily show that he is a total fuck up. Or else “the majority is always right” must be part of the liberal worldview. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Only the ones who don’t know her, from everything I’ve read. No true Alaskan puts sugar on his porridge. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/97 "2008-09-12T20:16:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It isn’t. You made a claim that a substantial majority of the citizens of Alaska would dispute - that Palin’s experience was brief and showed that she was a fuck up. If “it isn’t,” then why is the majority sentiment relevant? (Should I step into the next room and relax with a book or something while you argue this one out with yourself? :)) > [@](#): > > Unless you would like to argue that Bush’s approval ratings do not necessarily show that he is a total fuck up. That is in fact what I would like to argue. While I may have expressed _relief_ that the vast majority of Americans have caught on to what a fuckup Bush is, I would not regard their opinions as evidence to that effect. At any rate, genuine evidence to that effect is too abundant to need to reach for bogus evidence. > [@](#): > > Or else “the majority is always right” must be part of the liberal worldview. Well, of _course_ not. We’re a bunch of elitists, don’t you know? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/98 "2008-09-12T20:31:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Comments? Yeah, two comments: 1. If “Americans” hate to be told that there’s bad stuff going on, then “Americans” need to get their freaking heads out of the sand and look around. There’s always a lot of bad stuff happening; it doesn’t mean things can’t get better, but I don’t believe you fix problems just by positive thinking. The popular lesson of Jimmy Carter’s infamous “malaise” speech is just what you say–that people want the President to be a motivational speaker who tells them how great they are. I have no use for that. The President should be an administrator, not a cheerleader. 2. It’s not true that Republicans don’t send a negative message. Bush & Co. relied heavily on the “SAVE ME FROM THE EVIL TERRORISTS, DADDY!” message in 2004 and it seemed to work. Republicans have also been stressing the “decline of America’s moral fiber” message for decades. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/99 "2008-09-13T05:33:45Z")
There is nothing wrong with a MCcain and Palin ticket as long as he steps up. He has given her way too much of the spotlight. I agree that he needed all of the spotlight that Palin could give him but it is time for her to campaign on her own. If MCcain can’t hold the lead then he doesn’t deserve to win. Palin should be allowed to swim on her own at this point. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/100 "2008-09-14T04:55:15Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > 1. It’s not true that Republicans don’t send a negative message. Bush & Co. relied heavily on the “SAVE ME FROM THE EVIL TERRORISTS, DADDY!” message in 2004 and it seemed to work. Republicans have also been stressing the “decline of America’s moral fiber” message for decades. The positive message thing only applies to dems..Pubbies win elections with negativity…but thats different…for some reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026.md?page=6)