# Democrats, listen up if you'd like to win the election. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026 "2008-09-10T23:58:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/101 "2008-09-14T07:18:47Z")
> [@Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/17): > > I made a decision not to respond to any person who asks me to explain something I did not say and defend a position I do not hold. > > I do not partake in straw man arguments. > There is no correct answer to your question as stated: “why you believe that voting for a misogynist”. > > I do recognize that this thread topic is not about me and any beliefs you falsely accuse me of holding - but about how the Dem party can present their ideas and get elected .. What are your thoughts about that? > > Thanks > > Pinky Can you present your question using complete sentences? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/102 "2008-09-14T10:20:33Z")
> [@Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/5): > > You didn’t notice the bite marks on Geraldine Ferraro’s backside? Could you be more specific as to what you mean by this? > [@](#): > > Pinky Say hi to Chicolini for me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/103 "2008-09-14T11:52:35Z")
> [@Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/21): > > Sometimes discussion is derision. Salmon. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/104 "2008-09-15T00:20:43Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > _Stop Bitching at the American People_. Would that include having an economic adviser say everything’s fine, just that too many people are “whining”? :dubious: > [@](#): > > Why do you think Ronald Reagan was such a successful president We don’t. If you came down here, you’d be surprised how much in the minority that opinion is. Please don’t bother asserting it as fact. > [@](#): > > Americans look to their Presidents for inspiration. They want to feel good about themselves, and about their lives. Are you seriously advocating that the best way to win is to lie? That may be true, but it’s refreshing to hear you admit it, anyway. > [@](#): > > They want to be told that they’re not all going to hell, that the economy isn’t about to collapse on their heads, that they have a long list of grievances that must be addressed, and that America is evil and bad and needs to be changed. The economy is in such trouble now, and too many people are feeling too much real pain, as a result of the policies you have constantly exhorted the US government to follow over the last 8 years, that it is highly doubtful that such a campaign of lies can succeed this time. You absolutely fail to understand what’s going on here. Here’s a helpful hint: The Democrats aren’t blaming the _people_ for their plight, they’re blaming the _Republicans_. There’s a lot of responsibility to be accepted here. You aren’t making your guys take any of it, and never have. Utterly typical, and utterly predictable. > [@](#): > > This is the same attitude that just couldn’t figure out why the religious right was giving Palin a pass on her pregnant daughter. Sure we know. It’s called “hypocrisy”. Humans are susceptible to it. You just can’t acknowledge that your own guys do it, that’s all. You also might, if you were using unfiltered information sources for just once, realize that most people down here just don’t give a damn about that anyway. The “liberals” are not opposed to Palin for her family troubles; that implication of yours is just another of your straw men. The problems she faces, ones which you cannot address at all, are about her unpreparedness, her RR doctrinairism, and her corruption. The alleged focus on her family is a creation of the RW blogs you take to be true and complete. > [@](#): > > The old black community standard-bearers, like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton Another of your misconceptions. They were anointed as such by the media, especially the type you favor which looks for enemies to despise. Seriously, how much “leadership” of the “black community” do you really think those 2 men have had in recent years? How much of what you have seen on your TV and monitor been only a partnership between 2 publicity hounds and a few “news” sources willing to give it to them? One more reason you really need to come down here, look around, talk to people who don’t already agree with you, and learn about the nation for whom you have so much free advice to offer. Oh, wait, you seem to have a glimmer of truth: > [@](#): > > And those two couldn’t get elected dogcatcher. Yep. Now how is that fact consistent with their being anybody’s “standard-bearers”:dubious: > [@](#): > > You can sell the liberal agenda. But you have to sell it with a smile and a positive message. Where Obama started to lose his Mojo was at the convention, when he dumped his standard inspirational speech and gave a typical laundry list of grievances and Democratic answers. If he _hadn’t_ provided any answers, that would have worked better? Come on now. [quoye]Palin is the most popular politician in the country right now [/quote] In what circles? According to what polls? Or is that your own blog-fired imagination once again? > [@](#): > > Bottom line: Get out of the mud, stop trying to tear other people down, stop telling the country how horrible everything is, and start giving them a positive vision of their own lives and of their country and its future. IOW, lie to them. Got it. That’s from one of the few remaining abandoned-Japanese-solder believers in the truthfulness of the Swiftboaters. Just because baldfaced lying works on _you_, that doesn’t mean it works on \*us \*here where it counts. Now why should any reader here, especially those with even a passing familiarity with your history of “contributions” to US political debate here, think your concern for the Democrats is at all genuine? ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/105 "2008-09-15T00:25:02Z")
Elvis: Knock off the personal hostility and read what was written in a non-strawman manner: Don’t tell people they’ve failed, tell them they have the power to effect a positive change in their lives. You don’t have to say the economy is good, but you can say “we can fix the economy.” Sam’s pointing out that too often, Democratic campaigns are more concerned with crying “foul,” probably thinking that implies that they can fix it, instead of saying “we can fix this! We have the power! We have the technology! We can make it stronger, faster . . .” Still lost both legs, an arm, and an eye- but we don’t need to dwell on that. That depresses instead of motivates. Sam’s saying “Motivate, don’t depress.” That’s pretty basic, even if he is being rather verbose about it. Dio: Prove McCain’s a misogynist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/106 "2008-09-15T00:30:44Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Dio: Prove McCain’s a misogynist. I listed several things already. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/107 "2008-09-15T00:34:36Z")
Not that I see in this thread. And I’m issuing a challenge to your personal integrity, here, having read a number of your political polemics in addition to arguments: Is your miogynism accusation, or is it not, based on forcing an unproven premise, based on interpretation? I have no problem with you believing him a misogynist- that’s your right, especially if you read him that way. I’m asking for proof that doesn’t require an interpretation, regarding the misogyny of a man whose fortune comes from his wife and whose running mate is a woman. Because I’m damned sure pinky is, in fact, reacting to the hostility in your remarks. You’re trying to set a rather obvious rhetorical trap (Yes, no, or go on the defensive vis-a-vis McCain to reverse the defense required to actually respond to pinky), and pinky’s not falling for it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/108 "2008-09-15T00:39:51Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Not that I see in this thread. Post #130. > [@](#): > > And I’m issuing a challenge to your personal integrity, here, having read a number of your political polemics in addition to arguments: Is your miogynism accusation, or is it not, based on forcing an unproven premise, based on interpretation? This question doesn’t parse to anything I can understand. Could you try rephrasing it. I will say that my opinion that McCain is a misogynist is based on an aggregation of public and private behaviour. > [@](#): > > I have no problem with you believing him a misogynist- that’s your right, especially if you read him that way. I’m asking for proof that doesn’t require an interpretation, regarding the misogyny of a man whose fortune comes from his wife and whose running mate is a woman. I would argue that both those things are examples of McCain’s cynical _use_ of women for personal gain. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/109 "2008-09-15T00:48:55Z")
Thank you, Dio. I can’t believe I missed this. > [@Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/27): > > If you’re voting for McCain, you’re voting a for a man who voted against equal pay for equal work for women, who has a history of extraordinarily shabby treatment of women in his personal life, a man who has called Hillary a lesbian and called her daughter “ugly,” a man who opposes reproductive rights for women and who opposes social issues like UHC that are important to women. You are voting AGAINST a guy who has done nothing but support women’s issues and has never once been disrespectful to women. First off, I’d like to comment that this came too late to justify the original question to pinky, and that pinky’s responses seemed to me to be correct given that. That said, let me list these in order: 1. Voted against equal pay 2. “History of shabby treatment” 3. Called Hillary a lesbian 4. Called Chelsea “ugly” 5. Opposes reproductive rights 6. Opposes issues “important to women.” Responses: 1. Cite/Context, please 2. I assume you mean his affairs? Affairs are about the person having them, not the other person. I didn’t know you considered Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc. misogynists. (ie, this is a ridiculous basis to claim misogyny). 3. Cite, please. 4. Well, she wasn’t an attractive girl- rather pretty now, though. Again, though, cite? 5. This is your irrational “to oppose abortion is to hate women” meme. You and Der Trihs can start a club. We can call it “Baby killers for hire!” if you want to be extended as generous a consideration of your moral issues as you are handing out. For it to be misogyny, logically, there would also need to be a drive to force women to become pregnant in the first place, the piece that the chain of logic is missing. 1. This argument in itself, to me, is highly misogynistic, painting all women with the same brush and denying them any individuality or ability to behave or act as individuals. It’s also an excuse to leverage his entire platform into hating women, something that is a ridiculous and illogical spin. Frankly, Dio, you’ve often shown yourself as capable of better than that; please use the same logical standards you would apply to any purely factual question, and involves an implied character assassination by removing any other reason for opposing things like UHC, ascribing it only an “anti-” or “hate” stance. That’s a rather sad strawman. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/110 "2008-09-15T00:52:08Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Elvis: Knock off the personal hostility and read what was written in a non-strawman manner: In response to a post that was replete with them? > [@](#): > > Don’t tell people they’ve failed Nobody _is_ telling them that. As I said. The Dems are saying the _Republicans and their policies_ have failed. GOP /= “the people”. > [@](#): > > tell them they have the power to effect a positive change in their lives. By voting them out of office. Yes, indeed, that is the Democratic message. > [@](#): > > You don’t have to say the economy is good, but you can say “we can fix the economy.” Both candidates \*are \*saying that. But only one of them has played a role in fucking the economy up in the first place. > [@](#): > > Sam’s pointing out that too often, Democratic campaigns are more concerned with crying “foul,” probably thinking that implies that they can fix it, instead of saying “we can fix this! We have the power! We have the technology! We can make it stronger, faster . . .” Nope. That message is “Government has no power to help with your problems. See, the situation isn’t really the Republicans’ fault, it’s the _system’s_ fault, and the Democrats’ policies are obviously doomed to equal failure. You’re on your own, people. Good luck, we’re behind you all the way. Now go get 'em!” That attitude of failure, despair and irresponsibility that he expounds is \*hardly \*the American tradition, or anything anybody should want to be associated with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/111 "2008-09-15T00:54:56Z")
I see, partisan loyalty means all Dems are perfect angels. Despite the fact that you’ve hit the key Dem arguments that stops at failure: The Republicans failed! _FULL STOP_ See, that’s the problem. Also, it’s neither motivating nor inspiring to be told that you are disempowered, because a party can just up and do things to you. People turn out to vote if they feel the power rests with them. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/112 "2008-09-15T00:59:34Z")
Dio, I’m confused too about how McCain has 'opposed equal pay for equal work" Explain please! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/113 "2008-09-15T01:05:52Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > I see, partisan loyalty means all Dems are perfect angels. Where the fuck did you get \*that \*from? Do you want to discuss the topic seriously or don’t you? > [@](#): > > The Republicans failed! _FULL STOP_ Wrong again. It’s “The Republicans failed. Here’s why. Dump 'em and try the Democrats. Here’s what they’ll do instead.” What was that you said about “straw men”?:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Also, it’s neither motivating nor inspiring to be told that you are disempowered, because a party can just up and do things to you. Where the fuck did you get that from, either? > [@](#): > > People turn out to vote if they feel the power rests with them. And that’s what the above argument _does_. That’s what get-out-the-vote strategies _do_. And there are many ways to motivate people to come out, some respectable, some not - recent GOP methods have been based, unfortunately for our democracy, on fear - the “God, guns, and gays” line, and the “Bad people out there want to kill you, and only we want to save you” line, combined with “The Democrats want to take all your money” line. If you agree with **Sam** , as you seem to, that the GOP message recently hasn’t been that, but “Morning in America”, then I have to wonder what information sources have shaped your worldview, too. **Sam** ’s are already well-established over the years, allowing one to avoid the smalltalk and go right to the heart of the bullshit when engaging him. That may be what you misconstrue, as he himself so often does, as “personal”. Or maybe you don’t want to discuss the topic seriously after all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/114 "2008-09-15T01:36:50Z")
Elvis, that’s emotional reasoning. You, apparently, feel attacked and are attacking Republicans. I can tell you, as an independent in a very liberal region (Portland, OR) I _don’t_ hear Democrats saying anything more than “Republicans failed!” or “Bush sucks!” or “It’s our turn!” Never once with the “we shall overcome!” or “we can make things better!” If, in a liberal region, I hear acrimony, and acrimony gets worse where a position is more in the minority, I readily agree with Sam. Many Dems think “Vote Dem, this is what we’ll do” is being stated because it’s implied in “Republicans suck!” First off, that’s loaded with logical fallacies (one of the parties must have the answer? False dichotomy right there). The first “the fuck” was the idea that Dems will fix everything Repubs did. It ignores individual politicians to an incredibly biased extant, and does assign Dem=Perfection as an argumentative value. The other “the fuck” is that by arguing “The Republicans have done X to you, the Democrats will remove X,” etc., is that it tells them that _they are helpless, at the whims of the political parties, which are held as separate and distinct entities from their selves._ Why does Obama’s time as a community organizer play well? Why does Palin’s motherhood and coming up through the PTA? It’s a “one of us” situation, which leads to assuming that there is an “us” with the candidate. Meaning “WE” will accomplish things. Meaning, consequently, that “WE” has the power. You have assaulted my character and credibility by innuendo there at the end. Not appreciated. I listen to the candidates, as it happens. This is what I hear. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/115 "2008-09-15T01:41:35Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > 1. Cite, please. > 2. Well, she wasn’t an attractive girl- rather pretty now, though. Again, though, cite? [A joke too bad to print?](http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html) > [@](#): > > The fact that McCain had made the tasteless joke was reported in major newspapers, as was the vain attempt by his press secretary to initially deny what McCain had done. But in several major newspapers, the joke itself was kept a secret. When McCain subsequently apologized to President Clinton, the Washington Post, in its personality section, noted the apology but said the joke “was too vicious to print.” > > … > > \*\*“Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? > Because her father is Janet Reno.” \*\* #3 & #4 rolled into one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/116 "2008-09-15T01:41:44Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > 1. Cite/Context, please [McCain opposes equal pay bill in Senate](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/23/mccain-opposes-equal-pay-_n_98342.html). > [@](#): > > 1. I assume you mean his affairs? Nope. I mean his dumping of his wife after she was crippled and lost her looks in a car accident because he no longer thought she was suitably attractive to be a political wife. I mean his calling his current wife a cunt in public, > [@](#): > > 1. Cite, please. > 2. Well, she wasn’t an attractive girl- rather pretty now, though. Again, though, cite? These two have the same cite – [a “joke” told by John McCain](http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html) at a Republican fundraiser: > [@](#): > > “Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? > Because her father is Janet Reno.” A real knee-slapper, huh? What a champion of women. Incidentally, do you actually think your opinion of Chelsea’s looks is a defense to calling her ugly? > [@](#): > > 1. This is your irrational “to oppose abortion is to hate women” meme. No this is my opinion that trying to get the government to supervise and control women’s bodies is inherently sexist and dehumanizing > [@](#): > > For it to be misogyny, logically, there would also need to be a drive to force women to become pregnant in the first place, the piece that the chain of logic is missing. Nope. There only has to be a desire to control their bodies at any point at al. But since you mention it, your beauty queen from Alaska wants to impose this control even if the woman was raped. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/117 "2008-09-15T01:43:20Z")
> [@Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/26): > > Even tho I am a fan of Marx Brothers movies , I had to google Chicolini to realize the full weight of your insult. If Harpo Marx were alive, _he_ would have grounds to be insulted, by my associating you with the character he played in _Duck Soup_. > [@](#): > > I do not understand your motivation, but I do appreciate your talent for the playful yet obscure discrediting barb. > > You are very good at this, I am not. I must be an easy target. > > Pinky You, OTOH… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/118 "2008-09-15T01:53:32Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Elvis, that’s emotional reasoning. That’s a typical response from someone faced with adverse facts - to claim the discussion isn’t about facts at all. You must be new here. > [@](#): > > I can tell you, as an independent in a very liberal region (Portland, OR) I _don’t_ hear Democrats saying anything more than “Republicans failed!” or “Bush sucks!” or “It’s our turn!” > > Never once with the “we shall overcome!” or “we can make things better!” Those are all pretty much the same thing. > [@](#): > > If, in a liberal region, I hear acrimony, and acrimony gets worse where a position is more in the minority, I readily agree with Sam. **Sam** ’s position is that the acrimony is based only on a desire for acrimony - not on the \*fact \*of the economy being screwed up, the \*fact \*of Bush’s entering into a war of aggression, the \*fact \*of his authorizing torture, the \*fact \*of his disregard for the Constitution, the _fact_ of McCain’s supporting him 90%+ of the way on all that - no, to you and him, it’s just the mere exercise of petulance, right? If you agree with that, that’s pretty sad. Not to mention irresponsible, since I’ve done that already a couple of times. > [@](#): > > Many Dems think “Vote Dem, this is what we’ll do” is being stated because it’s implied in “Republicans suck!” > > First off, that’s loaded with logical fallacies (one of the parties must have the answer? False dichotomy right there). The fallacy is “straw man” - and the one using it is you. Unless, that is, you can back up your assertion that that \*is \*what “Many Dems think” with some of them pesky ol’ fact thingies. We do place value on that here. > [@](#): > > The first “the fuck” was the idea that Dems will fix everything Repubs did. Do you even know what a straw man is? :dubious: > [@](#): > > The other “the fuck” is that by arguing “The Republicans have done X to you, the Democrats will remove X,” etc., is that it tells them that _they are helpless, at the whims of the political parties, which are held as separate and distinct entities from their selves._ Hmmmm … Either you really don’t know what a straw man is or you don’t know anything else. That’s all you’ve presented here. > [@](#): > > You have assaulted my character and credibility by innuendo there at the end. Not appreciated. As I pointed out to you before, claiming “personal attack” is a common tactic of people with no respectable argument left to make. It doesn’t work here. > [@](#): > > I listen to the candidates, as it happens. This is what I hear. Paul Simon explained it years ago in “The Boxer”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/119 "2008-09-15T01:59:54Z")
Once again, this thread demonstrates that the most staunch supporters of the Democratic ticket here (judging by their postings) demonstrate a hostility in their efforts that is likely to turn off anyone who is on the fence. Take that from someone on the fence, but leaning towards the Democratic candidate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026/120 "2008-09-15T02:00:04Z")
Zeppo founded and built up a still-thriving aerospace manufacturing firm, best known for the Marmon Clamp, starting in his off-camera hours in his garage workshop. That makes him the #1 Marx Brother. So there. There are still those who put Karl at the top of the list, but they’re a dying breed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-listen-up-if-youd-like-to-win-the-election/463026.md?page=7)